The ancient Jews did what????

[kattey]

In the past week I've come across two "press releases" sent out by militant Arab Palestinians saying the Jews stole Jerusalem from them and that the Diaspora resulted from Jews prosylitizing in the Middle East and so were sent out into the Roman Empire as punishment.

Actually, they are trying to pin their infamous history on the Jews.  I wrote back, requesting proof; that is, I wanted to see the ancient histories of the cultures recording these events.  These press releases sounded very scholarly, one was sent from some French institute.

Of course, all of this is b.s.  It never occurs to these extremist Muslims that there are so many ancient histories.  If it takes another hundred years, we (Jews and Christians) will still protect ourselves from them, that is if drought and famine doesn't kill them all.

Abbas is doing his people no favors.

[Sekhmet]

Hey again kattey,

WOW!  What an article I wish you would have placed a source or link to it.  For one I would have found it interesting.

Well, I have been waiting for such an article and proclamation from them to such an effect.  It is easily discount by those of us with a Western Education, Josephus and Hadrian easily discount this distorted account.  Then we jump forward to Queen Mother Helena and there are no accounts other than Christians and some Jews living in Jerusalem during the 4th century AD.

So why have I been waiting for this well, you get more and more archaeologists claiming that Jewish and Christian scripture are based on fiction.  That there is no evidence of Abraham, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, or Joseph, David, Solomon, that they are created works of imagination by some ancient King, or even exiled people.  While the Qu’ran claims that both Jews and Christians have distorted their Holy books, as the Qu’ran remains as pure as the day Gabriel spoke it to Mohammad (pbh).  The work found in Yemen, negates that claim and should be pushed to the max!  IMHO.  What do/did folks expect!

The best way I discovered in dealing with my Islamic friends over the years is to know scripture theirs, mine, and Jewish.  It is amazing what a calm knowledgeable person can do. 

Regretfully, the way to solve this whole problem has long gone and passed.  We Americans, the Western World hold life so sacred that we can stand by and watch sworn to die for the USA, Foreign Service personnel lead out of their Embassy humiliated before the world on TV.  Nevertheless, hey they were Americans, we can take it- they did for far longer than they needed to.  God bless them all.  The correct way to have handled that nightmare would have been to; well hair-raising to most nations, but would have returned our personnel within 48 hours and started real peace talks.  One rifle, 52 bullets and the challenge to do it or else.  President Carter did not do us any favors IMHO either.

Arabs today are aware that their Oil Wealth is becoming a source of real agitation for the rest of the world.  That it is only a matter of time before it is replaced by Western/maybe even Far Eastern ingenuity.  Then where are they?  Right back into that hell hole of desert they were left in when the New World (LOL) was discovered.  They are desperate! 
Like all desperate people, they are going crazy and that is not good.  The problems date far back into history talking with people, whose Holy Book claim they can lie to Jews and Christians is not an easy thing to do.  However, the Qu’ran demands respect and protection for “the people of the Book" AKA the OT and NT:  yet when have you heard this demand from Jews or Christians!  I demand it from my Islamic friends and receive it.
The respect I have and my family have always received at the hands of Muslims has been achieved by simple human being respect, cultural respect, and knowledge of their religion in an educated manner.  Others as well educated, I have seen pull off the same results, silence, respect, and thoughtful consideration of what was said.

Nor does the Qu'ran tell Muslims that they have rights to the world.  It does encourage them to stamp out fire jumpers (Persians) and convert them.  I do not jump fire, do you?  Does anyone on this board jump fire as their religious practice?

kattey, if you could be so kind as to link or copy this article, I would appreciate.

You and yours have a nice day.

[turanclancath]

 Tempora Mutantur.

In mediaeval Spain let us say from circa 1000/1300  there was a very tolerant society Jews ,Muslims anfd Christians respected each other .

in the Muslim part of Spain Jews and Christians held high positions ( military and administrative, and were landed nobles.

in the Christian  part of Spain Jews and Muslims held high positions nobility etc and respected each other.
there were periods of exeption to these rule of course.
but the general trend was tolerant.

Sicily circa 900/1250 is an other examle of how the 3 religions were tolerant.

When Sicily  was Muslim circa 850/1050 Jews and Christians had only to pay a special tax.
( toleration was fixed in the so called pact of Omar ).
Wel when  the normans took over Sicily from circa 1050 nothing changed exept that now the muslims and jews had to pay the special tax.
The emperor Frederic  2 ( 1198/1250 ) also king of Sicily was the ultime  example of this toleration , his court was really cosmopolitan.
his elite troops were Muslim , couldnt be affected by the papal damnations against Frederic 2.

And the Turkish empire from the 16 century till circa 1850 was  extremely tolerant.
Fugetives from all religions were welcome and could reach high positions.


But when Fundamentalists got then and now the lead then a period of intolerance  started.
For example Egypt circa 1000 and Muslim Spain  circa 1130 ).


there is another problem
there is not only the holy Koran  but there is also the oral teaching.
The so called Hadits.

Sayings of the Profet collected by his pupils and teached to their pupils.

And then you have the Sharia.

All 3  give together what Islam teaches.

Compare to when Luther said  only the Bible and not what St.Augustine and all others have written.

And with the Jews Bible and Talmud.

And in Islam you have at least 5 different schools of interpretation.

And a example of early toleration.
The Dutch republic  of the 7 provinces.

Officially a Calvinistic Republic but Jews and Catholics were welcome and tolerated.
But ( typical dutch ) had sometimes to pay extra taxes.

And another problem.
The seperation  of church and state is typical Western.
in Islam strictly the state doesnt exist autonomous but is part of the community of believers ( Muslims ).
Modern Turky thanks to the great Kemal Attaturk is the exeption !

I think time for a history topic.!

turanclancath

[Brianroy]

There are many who can speak on the Quran more deeply and having personally come out of that culture and learning.

American Congress For Truth | Brigitte Gabriel

FrontPage Magazine

The Caner brothers are also those who should be read regarding this topic.

 Amazon.com: Online Shopping for Electronics, Apparel, Computers, Books, DVDs & more



Mohammed lived and died from about 570-632 AD.

Mohammed was a child molestor, whose favorite wife was age 6 when he married her,  9 years old when he sexually lay with her.  Imitating Mohammed, child brides are a favorite among Muslim men.

On June 21,2008 at Worldnetdaily.com:

..."In light of the recent California court ruling and the FLDS (Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints) legal fiasco in Texas, is the time coming when we in the U.S will be forced to tolerate child brides and multiple wives?" asks Joel Richardson, editor of the provocative new book "Why We Left Islam: Former Muslims Speak Out," published by WND Books.

The book is a compilation of the stories of 23 men and women who left Islam. The contributors are explicit about the danger that is posed by incrementally yielding traditional western moral and beliefs to Islamic tradition, a process that is called "soft sharia."

One Islamic tradition that caused several of the books contributors to leave the religion is that girls are often expected to marry adult men. For example, in the Islamic country of Yemen, 50 percent of all married women are under 14 years of age – including girls who have been married for several years. Girls as young as 6 and 7 are married to men in their 30s, 40s and 50s....

Aisha was six when Mohammed engaged the child and nine when he raped / consummated with her "in marriage" (Surah 33:28); and Mohammed himself doubted knowledge of his own eternal destiny (Hadith 5.266). In other words, if he couldn't save himself or be saved himself...who is he to tell you or me how to be saved, especially if it is by killing one's fellow man in order to do so? 

What Westerners don't get, is that it is a moral requirement for "good followers of Mohammed" to dupe unbelievers in Mohammed in Allah.

"If We supersede any verse  or cause it to be forgotten
[the right to change our story and lie whenever it suits us],
We bring a better one or one similar. Do you not
know that Allah has power over all things!" (Surah 2:106)

In other words, Mohammed says that his Allah is a liar, so why not me? It is therefore both the right and therefore, requirement,  of every Muslim to be a liar and live a life of lies and deceit. In fact, the better the craft of lying and dishonesty and perversity, the more glory in the realm of Islam [which means bondage of struggle], and the better Muslim you become.

As it is written,

"They plot and plan, and
Allah, too plans, but the best of planners(arabic equates 'planners' with liars, fakers, bluffers, and deceivers) is Allah." (Surah 8:30).

What are some of the misleading corrections that Islam wishes to impose on the Bible to dupe the foolish, or even liberal or undisciplined historians?

Surah 11:42-43 says Noah had a 4th son who drowned on a mountaintop in the Flood.

Surah 12:36-55 says that Joseph, while in jail in Egypt, tried to make Muslims out of the baker and the butler.

Surah 19:22 says Jesus was born under a palm tree, rather than in Bethlehem. 

Surah 61:6 declares Jesus announcing a coming prophet "Ahmad", i.e. an arabic synonym of this word "famous / praised" is Muhammad.

The Koran is a genuine work of fiction, a psychotic drug for the mind, forcing the subject into submission (hence, “ Islam”) of the will. 

  But that doesn‘t stop their  followers who call themselves as “good Muslims”, and yet wish to be archaeologists and accurate historians of the Biblical data.  The very concept is an oxymoron.

Sekhmet has been inaccurate in calling the Koran as a book of Peace (by inference or directness). It isn't.

In Surah 2:190, Allah says, "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you. And slay them wherever you catch them."

Surah 4:95  "Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and those who strive hard and fight in the cause of Allah with their wealth and lives."

In otherwords, unless you commit Jihad and murder unbelievers when your cause rallies you to do so for "Allah",  that makes you a bad Muslim.  The only question Muslims must take is...when is it time for ME to be called and do a jihad?  That appears to be subject to interpretation, and mistaken by Westerners as making Islam a peaceful religion.  It is...when there is no robbing, looting, rioting, or jihad to fight. 


And when the time comes, the “zealots for Mohammed”  will be citing to unbelievers chapter 64 verse 13: Allahu la ilaha illa huwa waAAala Allahi falyatawakkali almu/minoona   -  "Allah! There is no god but He: and on Allah, therefore, let the Believers put their trust." 

Then with either sword or knife...cut off the head in the tradition of Islam, which also teaches:

“Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Qur’an:9:5

"Fight those who do not believe until they all surrender, paying the protective tax in submission." Qur’an:9:29

"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah." Qur’an:8:39

"So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)." Qur’an:8:39

"He said, ‘Fight them so that there is no more rebellion, and religion, all of it, is for Allah only. Allah must have no rivals.'” Ishaq:324

"Fight the unbelievers around you, and let them find harshness in you." Qur’an:9:123

These verses do not just apply in time and space in antiquity, as between the Jews and the Amalekites (for example). They are for all time...and this, according to the Muslim clerics themselves.

So if we are going to have a work of violence pushed on us like a Trojan Horse...let's learn from history, and burn the horse.

 

[kattey]

Here is the website of one such propaganda machine:

http:www.redress.cc/zionism

Here are email addresses I responded to:

editor@middle-east-online.com
alquds@alquds.co.uk

This I don't understand.  I have read it is every Muslim man's dream to die as a martyr in the name of Allah.  So why do they complain when their soldiers get killed?  Muslims say there is a shortage of chairs in heaven and I wonder, can other people in heaven escape from having to be voyeurs??

[kattey]

ig-pay atin-lay

I'm oiNg-gay otay ost-pay iEs-lay a'out-bay the eople-pay who are eLlng-tay iE-lay a'out-bay the osen-chaYones.  O k?

[kattey]

I have an ADHD brain running overtime.  Sorry for unintelligible posts.

[Sekhmet]

I have an ADHD brain running overtime.  Sorry for unintelligible posts.

It is okay kattey    Just take care.

[Sekhmet]

Tempora Mutantur.


I think time for a history topic.!

turanclancath

Excellent post on Christian and Muslim history turanclancath!  It would be nice to have a History post Topic on the board.  We could then write about how the post Christian era affected Judism and Islam.  Along with the archaeology these distant eras are uncovering.

[Brianroy]

Lately, there are those that might be concerned that archaeology isn't exalted enough, as if it held the answers on"truth" because of "facts". 

In aleitheia, or as the Greek word properly translates, "the true reality", archaeology is simply a vast complexity of hypotheses- theses-commentaries on what history may or may not have been, based on artifacts and preponderance of what and how artifacts and opinions by excavators and various colleagues in various fields are mused upon.

There are some (they know who they are) who are upset if I quote or post links to works in excess of 70 years ago...works that were state of the art presumptions in archaeology in the time period they first published in.  The shame is...that like music (and sometimes religions), archaeology often passes through fads of interpretation and reinterpretation, with wide and striking variances among the experts themselves.

  "The purpose of the archaeologist is to recover and study the remains of ancient civilizations so that historians may reconstruct the story of ancient people....    It is important, therefore, for us to know something about history. Of particular importance is the need to recognize that Bible characters have their roots in history. For too many people such individuals as Noah, Abraham, Isaiah, and Jeremiah are unreal people who live only in the pages of a book or perhaps are portrayed in the windows of their churches. Through the work of the archaeologist many Bible figures may stand firmly on the solid ground of historical fact."

"If history is concerned with individuals as well as the group, then one method of validating the trustworthiness of the record is to establish the historicity of the individuals named. This is possible in many cases of individuals named in the Bible. First of all there is the listing in non-Hebrew records of Hebrew kings. In the inscriptions of Shalmaneser III he spoke of Ahab the Israelite, and on the Black Obelisk he recorded the tribute he received from "Jehu, son of Omri." Tiglath-pileser III received tribute from Jehoahaz and made proper note on clay tablets. This same monarch lists Menahem as one of the Kings he "overwhelmed." Tiglath-pileser refers to the Northern Kingdom as "Omri-Land" and tells of the overthrow of Pekah by the people and Tiglath-pileser's appointment of Hoshea as the new king. There is record of constant contact between as Syria and Israel during the ninth and the eight centuries B.C. until the final defeat of the Northern Kingdom. During the earlier period in which the United Kingdom had been established there is no biblical record of contact with Assyria, nor is there Assyrian record. This is in agreement with the fact that during the eleventh and tenth centuries the Assyrian Empire was on the decline and no forays were made into Palestine.

It is only after the fall of the Northern Kingdom that much attention is given by Assyria to Judah. Several records include references to kings Ahaz, Hezekiah, and Manasseh. Sennacherib's account of his attack on the city of Jerusalem has been preserved in that king's annals. He tells us that he held Hezekiah prisoner in Jerusalem, like a bird in a cage, and laid siege to 46 cities altogether. From the administrative documents of Nebuchadnezzar II we have confirmation of Jehoiakin's imprisonment in Babylon (II Kings 24:12-15) and the added information that a quota of oil was provided from the royal treasury for the prisoner.

Just as there is confirmation in clay tablets of the historicity of many biblical figures, so also there is evidence from papyri, stone, and clay that foreign kings listed in Scripture were historical figures. Prior to the finding of these ancient documents such names as Sennacherib and Nebuchadnezzar were merely names, not recognizable people. Most dictionaries and encyclopedias prior to the end of the 19th century had little information to guide the reader. Today we have rather full histories, and the newer dictionaries containing biographies are replete with information concerning kings and queens of Babylonia, Assyria, Neo-Babylonia (Chaldea), Egypt, et cetera."
Walter G. Williams, "Archaeology in Biblical Research" (Nashville, Tennessee: Abingdon Press, 1965) pp. 15-16; 118-119.

43 years ago, it was the historian's job to sift the archaeological data, and makethe best sense of it.  But now, in our lazy minded society of high tech, we have ever so slowly abandoned the difficulty of thinking to others, or to computer programmers who stamp machines with a process on how it should "think" and "process" information, when posed with questions. 

Michael Grant, a popular historian on Greco-Roman histories wrote:
 "People interested in history and people interested in religion ought to combine forces more than they do. A theologian's interpretations remain liable to contradiction unless he knows something of the historical background."   Michael Grant, "Jesus An Historian's Review of the Gospels" (New York: Charles Scribner's Sons, 1977) p. 1


In the context of the Bible, conservative scholarship has also told usthat the reverse istrue also...that historians will benefit by trustingthe historical veracity of the Bible.


  "The excessive skepticism shown toward the Bible  has been progressively discredited. Discovery after discovery has established the accuracy of numerous details."    W.F. Albright, The Archaeology of Palestine and the Bible (Revell, 1935), p. 127.


"The interval between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foundation for any doubt that the (New Testament has) come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established."   Sir Frederick Kenyon, The Bible and Archeology (New York: Harper, 1940), pp. 288,289


"It may be stated categorically that no archeological discovery has ever controverted a biblical passage."    Nelson Glueck, Rivers in the Desert (Philadelphia: Jewish Publications Society, 1969), p. 31


To be skeptical of the resultant text of the New Testament is to allow all of classical antiquity to slip into obscurity, for no documents of the ancient period are as well attested bibliographically as the New Testament."     John Warwick Montgomery, History and Christianity (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1976), p. 29


“Careful comparison of the New Testament with inscriptions and other early independent evidence has confirmed their primary claims . . . Competent historical scholarship must regard the New Testament documents as coming from the first century and as reflecting primary-source testimony about the person and claims of Jesus.”  John Warwick Montgomery, History and Christianity (Downers Grove: InterVarsity Press, 1976), pp. 31,34.


It is important for us to study history...but to me, we also need to be faithful to the Almighty who gave us the Bible, and trust HIM overthe ever- changing opinions and popularities of what men (or women) might think or say. 

 Gleason Archer Jr. puts it better:

"...the only alternatives available to us as we confront the Scriptures: either they are inerrant, or else we are."    Gleason L. Archer, Jr. "A Survey Of Old Testament Introduction"  (Chicago: Moody Bible Institue, revised 1994) p. 31

And a well respected scholar once noted the acceptance of Faith and History,  stating,
"It is, indeed, difficult to restrict a discussion of the New Testament writings to the purely historical plane; theology insists on breaking in.  But that is as it should be; history and theology are inextricably intertwined in the gospel of our salvation, which owes its external and universal validity to certain events which happened in Palestinewhen Tiberius ruled the Roman Empire."   
F.F.  Bruce in April 1959, as found in The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? (Downer's Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 14th reprint 1980), pp.5-6.

The Bible is vetted historically and archaeologically as accurate, and the merging of Faith with History is an acceptable expression of intelligent and open discussion.  Unlike the Koran, where Sharia Law -- to this very day -- murders at a whim wherever it is allowed to flourish unhindered, in a backward Third World mentality that the West is in denial to accept as reality, until it is too late and the "true Muslims" (to their faith) are labeled terrorists only after the fact that the damage or criminal actions have been done.   To them, all non-believers in Mohammed are never innocent, and subject to annihilation.  Regardless of race or nationality.  Period. 

So the issue doesn't have to be whether or not Jews are the "chosen" to set anybody off...some groups hate because that is all they know how to do.  And now that they have the Atomic stuff...will anything around us ever survive for as long as that left behind 2,000 years ago?  In a product disposable / consumer-driven world...I have to wonder.

Thoughts to consider.

Peace.

[turanclancath]

Watchmen Bible Study Group Statement of Faith

We were discussing Islam and Anti Hebrew atitudes.
I was really shocked to discover this well disguised( see link above )
Christian Antisemitic site.Scroll down to the last item.
More bad than all Muslims together.

I was looking for King Solomon and came upon this site


I dont understand that this is possible in America under the name Christian site and Bible study.

I understand you ( Americans )have all kind of complaining and denouncing institutions !!!!
Perhaps this is a complaint Bar/Bas  can make ?
So my conclusion is  all extreme fundamentalistic isms are dangerous,

 As bad as Muslim Fundamentalists.

Turanclancath:)

[turanclancath]

A very interesting 2009 conference about religious tolerance  called convivencia .

Turanclancath:)

[Sekhmet]

I dont understand that this is possible in America under the name Christian site and Bible study.

I understand you ( Americans )have all kind of complaining and denouncing institutions !!!!
Perhaps this is a complaint Bar/Bas  can make ?
So my conclusion is  all extreme fundamentalistic isms are dangerous,

 As bad as Muslim Fundamentalists.

Turanclancath:)

Agreed sir, BAR does address it in a manner in their September/October 2008, Vol.34 No 5 issue on page 6.  It is because of the persistence threats by the extreme fundamentalists.  To cancel their subscription because BAR remains true to its nondenominational position.  That I pay the slightly higher newsstand price.  Everytime I see such a threat I go out and buy another Issue, even if I already have it.  I give them away, to hospitals, Dr.'s offices, anyone that wants it, as long as I keep my first copy.


I would also like you to remember sir, the USA is a rather stange place.  Unlike most nations of the world where a majority is a clan member.  We evolued from the younger children of European nobility, common folks seeking religious freedom, common folks wanting to break free from their static place in the clan, the unwanted of other nations, we also took in a great many criminals from Englands jails.  The state of Georgia was England's original penal colony.  At under 300 years old, we still have lots of melding to do.  I retain my hope in both God, and my people those with old roots, and those of rather new roots, that the work He started with my immigrant fathers will continue until we are once again-One people.  Have a very nice day, Sir TuranClanCath.

[kattey]

The Hadiths

The historian Will Durant reports that there were well over a hundred thousand Hadiths after Mohammed's death.  Most of them were self-serving.  The Turkish government has resolved to study all Islamic material, to cut many Hadiths, and to modernize the Quran.  We can only hope.

Muslims like to say the Quran is the "perfect" word of God.  Mohammed had his companians memorize verses to be included in the Quran, but at least one set of verses was lost when one of the companians was killed in battle before he could recite his verses.  Muslims say that Mohammed recorded verses on leaves and twigs, whatever would hold verses, but not one of these items remains today whereas the Chinese have at least one inscription from the time of Confucius.

There came down in my family from my mother's side a quote:  "First we were kicked out of France, then we were kicked out of England."  My mother's ancestors escaped civil and religious oppression by escaping to America.  An enterprising family member tracked our family tree back to Charlemagne, which I use to be proud of until I found out that everybody living today can be traced back to Charlemagne.  One funny thing:  One of our ancient ancestors in England was asked to become a Knight.  He said no because the horse and armour were too expensive.

[Sekhmet]

There came down in my family from my mother's side a quote:  "First we were kicked out of France, then we were kicked out of England."  My mother's ancestors escaped civil and religious oppression by escaping to America.  An enterprising family member tracked our family tree back to Charlemagne, which I use to be proud of until I found out that everybody living today can be traced back to Charlemagne.  One funny thing:  One of our ancient ancestors in England was asked to become a Knight.  He said no because the horse and armour were too expensive.

Cousin!  Your family saying is one of my mother's family sayings!  She as well can trace her line to Charlemagne, well actually to Judith of Bavaria, who married his son, as his 2nd wife.  LOL  You are right it was expensive being a knight especially when it came to entertaining the King!