The "James, brother of Jesus" Ossuary

[Michael]

I think the James ossuary should be separated from the Talpiot tomb. Each should stand on it's own merit. The James ossuary does not have provenance and the Talpiot tomb was discovered and excavated by the IAA. Correct?

Also, didn't the original archaeologist say the stolen ossuary did not have an inscription?

I have talked to an expert who have seen both and know the antique dealers in Israel. You can read his article in BAR. The opinion of this scholar is that the James ossuary, which has a near identical patina with the Jesus tomb ossuaries, is the tenth, or the missing ossuary from the tomb. I won't mention his name here, I am sure he would not appreciate it.  E-mail me privately if you desire to know.

The origin of the James ossuary is clouded with lies and mystery and a different story everytime. The reason is simple. It was stolen from the Talpiot tomb and the robbers don't want to do jail time. Yet at the same time the owner wants to hold on to the ossuary and doesn't want to give it up. This is why they claim it is not from the Talpiot tomb which was broken into and robbed. To say it was would casue the owner to lose the artifact, so he lies about the origin.

[falasha]

great, we have two posts with nothing to go on but personal opinions.  i am unsure how to categorize the ossuary as there has been too much conflicting testimony which has clouded the issue.

so here are some questions:

1. does it matter if it is a fact or not?
2. who cares if it is a fake or not, it doesn't change the message of the Bible nor undermine it?
3. is this controversy just a political invention to appease the Muslims?
4. i doubt it is from the Jesus Tomb and who would be able to prove it  even if it was?
5. Tabor and Jacobovici took big hits to their credibility on that fiasco, why would anyone want to associate themselves with that tomb now?

try to provide some sort of support for your positions.

--------------------------------------------

"archaeologist" -

Since the whole field of Archeology is awash in various person's 'opinions', I don't particularly feel like mine or yours is of more or less value than other people's as long as we (and they) have studied up some on the subject.  Of course the insights of genuine scholars and especially working professional Archaeologists would have a great deal more weight to them. 

1. Yes it matters if it is a fake or not (its simple existence makes it a 'fact', so I've taken the liberty of answering the question I think you meant to ask), just as it matters with all artifacts.  We interpret the past based on the evidence we find.  The more fake artifacts we accept, the more incorrect assumptions we make about history.  The interesting thing about this artifact however is the tantalizing possibility that it could be an ancient fake - part of the 'Jesus Family Tomb'.  Properly acknowledgment would give it status as a real artifact, but not one of actual historical significance except as documenting the existence of ancient tourist traps.  It also matters because here in the present it could show a group of men (who probably are or will become very central to the question of whether unprovenanced artifacts should be recognized) to be either frauds, victims, or heroes - and their liberty and livelihoods (for those still among the living) could be lost.  Should they be held in our hearts and minds as deceivers or martyrs?  Of course it would make a great museum attraction if it was genuinely the ossuary of the Apostle James, but only a curiosity as a relic of an ancient snow-job.  Does it matter religiously?  Of course.  Almost all religion is simply superstition.  In so many places around the globe religion, even 'Christian' variants of it, is dogmatically held as important above all else including life itself.  Entire churches, communities, and even armies have been built around religious artifacts throughout history.  If this were to be declared the actual ossuary of one of the Apostles there is no telling what kind of cult following it could develop.  Also  if the 'Jesus Family Tomb' was declared legitimate we'd be right back to the dawn of a New British Empire since the King of England would be proven to be the direct descendant of Jesus and all of Christianity would need to get in line behind him again.

What is the evidence that you have read that leads you to believe it was a hoax in order to legitimize British rulers?

  But to me this whole episode is a very good example of just exactly why folks should not go jumping to conclusions before the evidence has a chance to be examined and the story has a chance to be told.

I have not heard of anyone jumping to conclusions. But with this group of names I believe it would be almost criminal to not investigate.

Also, I have no idea why this would appease muslims.

[rumplesnitz]

Dearest Falasha,

Below is the post that contained the idea that somehow the ossuary would appease Muslims (item # 3 in the list of questions).  Note that it was posted by the guy who gave himself the handle "Archaeologist", not by me.  I do not know what he means by the question, either.

great, we have two posts with nothing to go on but personal opinions.  i am unsure how to categorize the ossuary as there has been too much conflicting testimony which has clouded the issue.

so here are some questions:

1. does it matter if it is a fact ornot?
2. who cares if it is a fake or not, it doesn't change the message of the Bible nor undermine it?
3. is this controversy just a political invention to appease the muslims?
4. i doubt it is from the Jesus Tomb and who would be able to prove it  even if it was?
5. Tabor and Jacobovici took big hits to their credibility onthat fiasco, why would anyone want to associate themselves withthat tomb now?

try to provide some sort of support for your positions.

[rumplesnitz]

Dearest Falasha,

My mindset behind pondering if the Talpyiot Tomb could have been an ancient attempt by someone to prop up someone's throne is mostly attributable to my suspicious nature and that I read a of material, but rarely go in depth on any particular subject - so I end up with lots of tiny shards of information buzzing about my brains, but no real knowledge except that people will lie to you to get something they want.

I know there are myths about the relationship between the Throne of David and the Throne of England; Scotland; Latvia; El Segundo; and Murfreesboro, TN.  I know there are 'secret societies' that are sworn to maintain and protect deep secrets of ancient mysteries - the 'Knights Templar' and all that stuff.  But I lack any meaningful digestion and retention of what it's all really supposed to be about, just that there was this sword in a stone and Arthur Pendragon yanked it out and got to be king as it proved God's acceptance of his lineage.  Some sort of stuff like that.

I know there have been many power-hungry players throughout history willing to lie and fabricate to sway public opinion in order to gain prestige and that as Christianity gained momentum lots of charlatans preyed on the masses claiming their desires were 'the will of God' or such.

I know there are those who say Jesus did not die on the cross, those that say He and Mary Magdalene had a son and set up an Earthly hierarchy which moved to England and established the British Empire.  There seem to be lots of variants to that basic plot line, and a variety of sources for each particular story.

Who would do this?  It occurs to me that a Jew or a Muslim person might do it to discredit Christianity and portray Westerners as mislead ignorant invaders who don't belong in the region.  It could be any variety of secular opportunist who desired to establish a corps of 'true believer' soldiers sold on the concept that they alone were in possession of the True Knowledge of God's Plan following the orders of a man they could revere as being singularly holy enough to be entrusted by God to preserve and protect this site.  Perhaps a Roman Emperor had it done to demonstrate how the First Church established a dynasty that led to him.  Perhaps a disaffected monk, priest, or Abbot built it to persuade targets that their piety was in vain and they should party heartily inside their cloistered monastery walls.  These are just examples of the suspicious thoughts that arose in my mind upon reading the initial press reports that someone claimed to have found the remains of Jesus, his wife, and son.  I don't adhere to the belief that Jesus ever had a wife, offspring, or left His Body behind - so in my mind obviously a tomb for Him and His family would automatically send up the BS antennae pretty quickly.

I've read a number of articles on the subject now and refreshed my faltering memory somewhat - and now I believe the tomb is simply an example of a typical fairly wealthy family's tomb from the period in question, blown all out of proportion by sensationalists out for a buck with perhaps a sappy financier who hoped to share something special with the world.  Only my opinion, however.

Certainly an initial glance at the list of inscriptions would give any religious person a tingle of excitement like a kid hoping for snow so that school will be closed.  Add in a fellow who has devoted his life toward researching this stuff and probably feels some proprietary pangs about 'his' tomb and has a buddy who reaaaally wants one of ten otherwise common rock boxes.  Then complicate the scenario with low salaries, stupid-rich collectors, perhaps a little job dissatisfaction and some hucksterism among one or more of the parties concerned.  Then along comes Herschel Shanks who gets wind of the 'finds', publishes the first generation of stories - the Press world wide freaks out, the news goes global, the IAA gets caught sleeping and comes down on the bad boys with a vengeance, Hershel et al can't resist riding the high tide of piqued public interest (and who can blame them?), Shuka Dorfman gets so pissed at Herschel for breaking the story he wants to come to the US and personally shoot him but has only his locals to pour out his wrath upon.

Now I don't know any of that stuff.  And I certainly don't mean any of it to insult, disparage, libel, or slander anyone.  I do not know any of the people involved nor do I have any access to first-hand information of any of the sites, artifacts, people, or actual events.  It's just kind of a depiction of the way it all settles out in my head from the shards that stick with me.  And all I am is a mad layman out in the sticks who probably watches too much TV.

There is an alternative scenario bouncing around in my imagination that could legitimately explain all of the facts and assumptions:

Perhaps Jesus did leave behind mortal remains and he and MM did have progeny.  The First Century Church would have needed to hide these facts at least to save face in light of their chosen tenets, and/or to save a whole lot of explaining about a few little details.  They would have had enough reverence for their departed leader to have a proper resting place established, although off to the side in a secret location.  As time passed they gathered and emplaced the remains of a few more founders and family members to honor them and/or keep them from being pillaged by the faithful.  The 'Prosperity Message' cult so prevalent just now on US Television claims Jesus's Ministry had the equivalent of millions of dollars, property, and influence.  So the idea of an impoverished First Century Church is not necessarily accurate.  They could have provided this tomb.  Lack of adornment and material goods is easily explained by Jesus's teachings, the need to maintain secrecy, and/or tomb robbing.  The additional remains about the place could be accounted for in any number of ways from last wishes of the faithful to criminal behavior.  The missing ossuary could have been taken out years ago by some child who happened across a temporary opening perhaps after a storm at some time in the not-so-distant past, and/or a miscount by the 'original' excavator - which would also account for the lack of photographs of a tenth box.  In this scenario the tenth box ends up on the market legitimately prior to 1974, and human error explains the confusion/loss.

Again, no proofs, no real knowledge - just simple conjecture of an always questioning and suspicious mind.  I put it out here simply to encourage dialogue, as a cry for help in satisfying my own curiosity, and perhaps to remind folks that there are lots of possibilities, not all of which have one simple answer, and that there's lots of differences between truth, proof, and what authorities can and can't say without getting into trouble.

Any of you guys try to make a movie out of my scenarios I want a piece of the action, ya hear?

[turanclancath]

Rumpel  this quote from you  :
!!!!
////////////////

Who would do this?  It occurs to me that a Jew or a Muslim person might do it to discredit Christianity and portray Westerners as mislead ignorant invaders
 /////////////



What you think the Chief Rabbi of Israel or the Heads of Sunni and Shiite Islam would think of this

in all brotherly love and respect i hold for you   this isnt  civilised to say in my opinion.

I think if a very religious Jew or Muslim would read  your quote they will get furious and feel  insulted.

Perhaps they  will write   it was an Christian Arianism follower who did this

The Debate was around 300 AC.at Alexandria between Athanasius and Arius  and later their extremist followers,They killed each other in street fights!!!.It was an extreme important issue.
So in my theory( as an professional historian sorry to say !) look there for a falsum !!!
The Emperor Constantine decided in the end to favour Athanasian opinions
at the councel of Nicea 325 AD.( although he was baptised Arrian  Sic !!! )
It became the Nicene creed.

Arianism teaching Christ was Human and died as an Human was very popular with the Geman tribes.
They could understand Christ as a kind of German Hero a kind of Siegfriedf

Ulfilas ( a Arianist ) translated the Bible in Gothic in the 4 century and converted the Goth( Ostro and Visigoths ).

Later around 750/800 it popped up this Arianism under the name of Adoptiansm in Spain and Southern France.
Bisschop Felix of Urgel(the Arch Heretic according to Carolingian sources )


So why in my opinion slander Jews and Muslims ?


in all respect and Amor  Humilitas  and Caritas etc etc

turanclancath:)

[falasha]

I, too, have many bits of information from a variety of books and publications. I am always skeptical of conspiracy theories because of my work for Dept. of Treasury. Having worked in the government for so many years I realized that NONE of the many conspiracies ascribed to them could have possibly happened. If they are so dang smart why can't they recycle? They tried but could not do it. It was much too complicated. Paper, glass was ok but then COLORED glass threw them for a loop. Newsprint and white paper was the final death knell. I believe that conspiracies are only created in hindsite.

[rumplesnitz]

Thank you ladies for pointing out my obvious faux pau's (?whatever that fancy word for 'blunders' is).

I certainly didn't mean to slander entire races of persons nor hatch another 'vast conspiracy' theory, just to point out that an entity from any of the extant walks of life in that geographic area could have acted on his own behalf based on his own abilities and desires, it didn't have to be 'the Jews' or 'the Muslims' or 'the Christians' - just an individual or small group who hatched a plot for their own reasons.  The list was not meant to be all-inclusive nor targeted, just diverse enough to show that anyone could have had a motivation to indulge in the kind of scenario I was speculating about; my purpose being to broaden people's views on the matter, not to assign any kind of blame.  And I included my own demographic descriptives in the pile so as to not be impertinent (? have I got the right word there?).

Of course, as I went on to explain in that post, I think I have fairly well proven to my self through reading and re-reading BAR's excellent collection of articles on the subject that the idea of the Jesus Family Tomb being the result of some kind of ancient scam is invalid.  The voices of reason seem to agree that it is simply an example of a typical fairly wealthy family's tomb from that period.  The collection of names found is just close enough to what one would presume a family of the Biblical Jesus to look like to be really titillating to the masses (of which I am a member).

I sincerely hope that no one is insulted by my musings, but the realm of possibility is not limited by political correctness.  I can certainly understand that there are professional persons who could never say such things, but I really am just a blue-collar working man with no credentials or career on the line so I feel a kind of liberty to be able to go those places and tip over a few rocks others dare not disturb.  I think reasonable persons will understand; unreasonable persons are gonna get mad no matter what.  And if I start a riot in Mecca and some Ayatollah sends a band of assassins to get me - well, first off they need to get a better hobby; secondly they better bring a road map, a bunch of help, and plenty to eat 'cause me and mine will keep 'em entertained for a while out here.

[rumplesnitz]

Rumpel  this quote from you  :
!!!!
////////////////

Who would do this?  It occurs to me that a Jew or a Muslim person might do it to discredit Christianity and portray Westerners as misled ignorant invaders
 /////////////

What you think the Chief Rabbi of Israel or the Heads of Sunni and Shiite Islam would think of this

In all brotherly love and respect I hold for you this isn't civilised to say in my opinion.

So in my theory, (as an professional historian, sorry to say!) look there for a falsum !!!

The Emperor Constantine decided in the end to favour Athanasian opinions
at the councel of Nicea 325 AD.( although he was baptised Arrian Sic !!! )
It became the Nicene creed.

Arianism teaches Christ was human and died as a human.  It was very popular with the German tribes.  They could understand Christ as a kind of German Hero - a kind of Siegfried.

Ulfilas (an Arianist) translated the Bible into Gothic in the 4th century and converted the Goth (Ostro and Visigoths).

Later around 750/800 it popped up - this Arianism - under the name of Adoptiansm in Spain and Southern France.
Bisschop Felix of Urgel (the Arch-Heretic according to Carolingian sources).

So why in my opinion slander Jews and Muslims ?

TuranClanClath,

I hope I've re-assured you that it was not my intention to accuse or slander anyone, just to pose a few scenarios.  And I sincerely apologize to anyone who may find offense in my suggestions - and to anyone that may apply to let me say before you let a flicker of anger cause you to find insult, read the whole statement in context and note that I was simply postulating about what could have happened a long time ago, that I went over a diverse list of basic cultural groups which could have been found in that area in that time period, and I don't actually personally believe any of those ideas are fact because I am fairly certain in my own mind that the tomb in question is nothing more than a typical tomb of it's period, with a group of inscriptions just similar enough to Christian New Testament characters to be exploited by modern persons out to make a quick profit off of sensationalist claims.

But back to the gentle lady.  Thank you for the study suggestion!  It was once my desire to become a History Professor myself, but that goal is well beyond my grasp now I believe.  I'm too old, I have to work at least one full-time job for a living, and real education is just too expensive for me to afford.  I am so blessed just to have this venue available so I can parse with professional persons such as yourself.  Mind you, I've been a common dirt soldier so I'm a little prone toward being blunt and I live in a remote place in a land where freedom of speech is taken for granted.  I try not to say inflammatory things, but I believe real knowledge and actual truth is so important and potentially so liberating to all parties involved that I won't shy away from it and won't allow bullies to silence others who may have valid opinions, if I can do anything about it.  To this day I'd give my life in service to truth and freedom (God is in charge of Justice), if it would help one more person break the bonds of tyranny.  I hope that doesn't make me too scary or controversial of a person to associate with.  I will however try to refine myself a little more and keep other's feelings in mind as I ask questions in the future.  Please don't hesitate at all to continue to point out when I'm getting out of line or making a complete fool of myself.  I truly value an educated and reasonable voice like yours and would hate to alienate you from my conversation.  And I think you're absolutely correct in pointing out a very likely culprit if a tomb does indeed exist which actually contains relics that claim to contain Jesus's Earthly remains or his wife's or child's.  I've learned a lot through this series of exchanges alone and also in other forum subject lines.  If you can believe it, there are actually some topics that I'm learning from and not even commenting!  Their subject matter is just too far over my head for me to even attempt an intelligent question or observation.  So I am a student here, grateful to have access to professionals who can provide instruction with genuine merit.  Some of my questions may be a little strange - but who will answer if I don't ask?

God bless!

billy joe

[turanclancath]

Very very thanks for your kind words  Rumplesnitz.

You are a great Psychologist in feeling that i  felt discouraged to post because of the biting barking and quarelling we do here.
I got a very negative impression of the American way of life  by that,  but thank God you  and others showed the more civilised sides.

Rick wisely told me this Forum is kind compared to the vitriolic discussions in other Forums.
So your kind message gives me the courage to post again  and I hope we can reach all   the kind of polite level of discussion you show.
You made my day a good one !

Being a dirt soldier or a marine( ) is a great Job nothing wrong with it.

And asking questions as you want to do  well that is the core of all science and wisdom.
Its called the Socratic method ( after the Athenian Philosopher Socrates )

He came to the answers by going on asking questions.
Here in Holland  we use this method in  education also.

So thanks to your fine mail i will post like a fountain full of ideys.

And to correct misunderstandings
I,m male 64 we have to grown up boys both married.

I have the Segnora the Guadaloupe ( patroness of all America ) as an Avatar because wenn i was very very ill in hospital with emergency operation she saved me I believe.
And  i wish you all a good night overthere in the States.

turanclancath

[rumplesnitz]

Hey guys & gals - don't fergit to vote in the poll... 

[RamboPreacher]

Hey guys & gals - don't fergit to vote in the poll... 

hay you just changed it to a poll?

[rumplesnitz]

Uhhhh... I added a poll, izzat the same thing?  It should show up at the top of each page of the thread, I think...

[RamboPreacher]

Uhhhh... I added a poll, izzat the same thing?  It should show up at the top of each page of the thread, I think...

yup.  I voted. 

[rumplesnitz]

Outshtanding shir!

Now c'mon all you other folks, sign up and vote...!

[Elijah]

well i could go on an online dictionary
but alot of people dont like me
so in thought of them
i will give them a good laugh.....


whats an ossuary


(hey dont know how to create theose polls
but maybe i should do a poll survey...
Is Elijah delluded?
o yes
o no
o undecided
o who's he
o isnt everyone
o whats delluded
o ask Rick J