There was no Exodus

[Michael]

To put it simply the exodus was a cosmic myth. The whole story was part of the Passover story used to explain the rituals surrounding the vernal equinox.

The Canaanite language shows no sudden influx of Egyptian words at any one time. This is something one would expect had there been an Exodus, plus there would be a change in customs. This simply did not occur.

The fantastic number of people involved plus the 40 years in the desert should be proof enough that the story has an underlying fictional meaning. I would think after one year lost in the desert, someone would be wise enough to pick one direction and follow it until they were out.  This isn't rocket science.

The Exodus can never be dated because the story was written in at least 3 different time periods. The oldest of these was during the Great Famine of the Early Bronze Age. This was the background for the text as well as the time of the writing of the birth of Moses, which is near identical to the birth of Sargon. Joseph Campbell claims this story is a cosmic myth, but never explains where in the constellations the myth takes place.  (Eridanus)

The construction of the city in Exodus was a Middle Bronze Age reference. Heshbon, a city conquered by Moses did not exist to the Iron Age. Clearly the story is a living document, written in the same fashion that Tigay describes Gilgamesh.

Moses like Abraham, Samson, and David were earthly or human representations of various gods. The Jewish authors did to gods what the Catholic Church did to them. They made them into saints and incorporated them into their religion and history.

Moses was Marduk. At the vernal equinox Sargon would don the robes of Marduk and become him in a play where he would defeat the powers of chaos. The name for Moses comes from the Assyrian title for Marduk, which was masu, meaning hero. In some places he was called Mises, a gutteral slur of masu, just as Moses is a slur of masu. This was characteristic of Hebrew which generally took foreign words and added a constanant sound to the end of the word according to Sayce.

Evidence that the story did not come from Egypt is within the text itself. The basket of Moses was sealed with Bitumen or pitch as was Sargon's basket. Horus of Egypt, who was also placed in a basket, had a basket that was not sealed in that manner. Why? Because the Egyptians of the era used wax and wet papyrus as sealants. Pitch was common around the Dead Sea and was used there, but not in Egypt until the Greek conquest.

[RamboPreacher]

Thank you for your apparent complete knowledge of the exodus account and it's apparent "falseness".  Please however, now provide us with the proof of your apriori statements.  the way this works in public forums is that since YOU made the statements "of fact", it is up to you to provide the necessary backing in order to prove said statements.

and please, no reversing.  I don't have to prove that it did happen.  I didn't make an apriori statement claiming that "fact".  I may believe that it did happen, but I will say it as such; that it is my opinion, and belief that it did happen.

examples of your apriori's in review:
* the exodus was a cosmic myth
* ...used to explain the rituals surrounding the vernal equinox
* The Canaanite language shows no sudden influx of Egyptian words
* one would expect had there been an Exodus
* there would be a change in customs
etc...

[Michael]

Certainly this is not anything close to my complete knowledge. That would take a book.


Actually the no change in Canaanite language or customs is accepted scholarship. Likewise the use of the Passover story to fictionalize already existing Canaanite rituals of the vernal equinox is likewise accepted scholarship. If you were to attend one of BAR's lectures featuring Dr. Gary Rendesberg, you would be aware of what is standard fare for university teachings. In this case the burden of proof is on those who can demonstrate a sudden influx of Egyptian words and customs into the Canaanite culture, the Red Sea parted, and millions of people can survive in the desert lost for 40 years. I can't prove a negative, just site university sources for the above. I am not going to waste my time "proving" what is already known and accepted.

Now the specific cosmic myth involved is a different story. This is my personal assertion, and in fact I have written a book on the entire topic on the subject. The proof is rather lengthy and is too much to print the entire text here. I will make it short and sweet.

The Eridanus represented the Nile river.  Four stars near the beginning represented a nest. This was the basket of Sargon/Moses/Horus.

Moses kills and Egyptian and flees. He goes to the Pleiades where he meets his wife, one of seven sisters, a known characteristic of the Pleiades. Her name is Zipporah, which means bird or fowl in Hebrew. The name comes from the city of Sippara which had the Zu-Bird as its main deity. The Zu-Bird (also Roc) represented the Pleiades in their culture and in Babylon Taurus would be depicted with a bird on its back.

Gershom was named so because he was a “stranger in a strange land." This is because the foot of Perseus touches the Pleiades. He was Perseus and Al Gol, a star which the ancients claimed could talk was the Burning Bush. However this star has a sinsiter nature. That is why on the return trip YHWH attempts to kill Moses. (Funny how you never hear a sermon on that embarrassing topic.)

The attempt is thwarted when Zipporah cuts off the foreskin and touches Gershoms foot with the flint (this is a more literal translation than the KJV disaster.) This is the sting in Orion's foot, the arrow in Achilles heel.  It takes us back to the Eridanus/Nile. One of the stars along the Eridanus represented frogs, hence the weird plague of Frogs.

Moses takes his people out of Egypt by following the glow of the Eridanus and gets to the bottom star which represented a dam, or dry land for them to cross. The Egytian army was pushed back by the hand of God (a more literal translation). This was the paw of Cetus which crosses the Eridanus.

Cetus is the desert. It is a vast constellation with few stars. I will leave the story at this point, although it does continue.

The time period for the alignment of the Passover to the vernal equinox is 2141 BCE. The odd thing about the Hebrews, unlike the other cultures, they considered the Pleiades part of Aries instead of Taurus. This accounts for the golden calf scene where some want to worship the bull or calf (Taurus) and others want to push forward and worship the lamb (Aries.)

If anyone has a better reason why YHWH after he commanded Moses to return to Egypt would then try to kill him, I would be so entertained to hear it.

[archaeologist]

it is easy to denounce something or claim t to be a copy of some sinful legend but you are limiting your scope and making your window for evidence too narrow.

one thing you do not consider is that for 2000  people from all walks of life, different races, different nations have believed in Jesus and have accepted the Bible as God's word and truth.

those same people have had lives changed, families change, experienced miracles, and seen God at work and have made the ultimate sacrifice for their beliefs among many other sacrifices, etc..

none of this would have happened if one part of the Bible is false.  no one believes in something that is or has been proven to be false nor do they die for it or give up lucrative jobs to be punished or die for something that is untrue.

if there wasn't an exodus thenthere was no conquest, no settlement no israel.  israel is here, and how did they get in the promised land?  the Bible is the only one to provide the answer.

finkelstein and dever can't, their theories are just wishful thinking based upon mis-applying the evidence they discover and they do that simply because they do not want to or do not believe the Biblical record.

[Michael]

it is easy to denounce something or claim t to be a copy of some sinful legend but you are limiting your scope and making your window for evidence too narrow.

one thing you do not consider is that for 2000  people from all walks of life, different races, different nations have believed in Jesus and have accepted the Bible as God's word and truth.

those same people have had lives changed, families change, experienced miracles, and seen God at work and have made the ultimate sacrifice for their beliefs among many other sacrifices, etc..

none of this would have happened if one part of the Bible is false.  no one believes in something that is or has been proven to be false nor do they die for it or give up lucrative jobs to be punished or die for something that is untrue.

if there wasn't an exodus thenthere was no conquest, no settlement no israel.  israel is here, and how did they get in the promised land?  the Bible is the only one to provide the answer.

finkelstein and dever can't, their theories are just wishful thinking based upon mis-applying the evidence they discover and they do that simply because they do not want to or do not believe the Biblical record.

Many people believing in something false for a long period of time does not make it true, just shows people are by nature foolish and stupid. For those people we still have a flat earth society.

The mind is a powerful thing. People change because they want to change. The notion of a deity has been used as a placebo effect for centuries. In fact it doesn't matter whcih god you choose. I have Buddhists and Hindus to be far more better people than Christians. Does this make their religion more true than Christianity. I am in contact with an old HS girlfriend who became a nun. She was inspired by Gandhi.

People sacrificed their lives for religious beliefs when they rammed a perfectly good airplane into the WTC. Does that suddenly make their religious beliefs correct?

Israel consisted of a group of Canaanites who worship the moon god, Sin, or YHWH as they would call it. Mt. Sinai is named after the moon god Sin. They always existed in the "promise land." The idea of a chosen people and the promise land was simply adapted, or stolen by the Jews from the Akkadians who likewise considered themselves the chosen people of god, a full century before their was any Israel.

It is interesting to note the "promise land" God gave Israel already had people living on it, so Israel was now justified in the eyes of god to committ genocide. Imagine if I was to say that my god has given me your house and I must kill you and everyone in your family and take it over.

You might ask, "why don't you simply take an unoccupied home?" Nope, it has to be your house and no other and you and your family must die, and your pets too.

Excuse me, but that is not a god I wish to follow or a people I want to help.

[RamboPreacher]

Certainly this is not anything close to my complete knowledge. That would take a book. ...

interesting examples of interpretation.  you still have shown no proof.  and in fact continue to make apriori statements; though you do say that "the cosmic myth" is your assertion - I thank you for that concession of accuracy.

That's okay, I understand that believing something (even if you state it as a matter of fact and assume that everyone else must believe the same) is your prerogative - I will just agree to disagree.  and your interpretation is interesting.

[SMMAssociates]

There's no proof here....  Michael's (interesting - I'd not run into that one before) view is a possibility, as are all of the other parallel stories that are more commonly known.

My view is that the result of Akhenaten's heresy put a bunch of people on the road.  That likely generated some monotheism where they ended up.  The desert (sorry, guys, "manna" doesn't really mean much here) just wouldn't support more than a very small group.  Meantime, it's starting to look like the "Hebrews" may have been the Hyksos, or may have been mercenaries that left (probably in slightly larger numbers) around the same time.

They drifted into Canaan, and needed a history.  No Inernet to debunk it, so it stuck....

What's interesting here, sometimes, is the "warts and all" approach to history that we sometimes see in the Bible.  "Amalek" being a good example....  Modern historians would try to gloss over things like that....

There is, I think, too little other evidence....  I don't expect to see extensive artifacts or "Historical Markers", but the Egyptians not only leave out the Exodus, which is understandable, but the prior presence of a large group of Hebrew slaves.  Almost all we know is from the Joseph story....

(I'm no farmer, but how do you store grain for seven years?)

The Bible is largely a work of faith.  Those who wrote it were seeking explanations, or using explanations that oral historians had provided.  No Internet, no CNN, no newspaper morgues, and no written texts to speak of.  They wanted, and needed a good story.  We have the benefit of more than 2000 years of hindsight, and perhaps 200 years of serious archaeology and study of the past, and can find better explanations.

Doesn't really change anything, IMHO.  If you say that "God created the Universe", it's really irrelevant which finger he used, or whether it's "steady state" or "big bang".  Either you believe that God did or didn't do it....  We should be past the "angels on the head of a pin" arguments.

Just IMHO....

(Credentials:  A degree in Philosophy and the Psychology of Religion, with minors in History and Law Enforcement.  And more than 30 years in Computers.  "Armed Programmer"....  Good thing I found a real job....  IAC, enough education to realize that I don't know everything, and a willingness to listen.)

Regards,

Stu.

[Michael]

Certainly this is not anything close to my complete knowledge. That would take a book. ...

interesting examples of interpretation.  you still have shown no proof.  and in fact continue to make apriori statements; though you do say that "the cosmic myth" is your assertion - I thank you for that concession of accuracy.

That's okay, I understand that believing something (even if you state it as a matter of fact and assume that everyone else must believe the same) is your prerogative - I will just agree to disagree.  and your interpretation is interesting.

Like I said I have written a book on the topic as my proof. It is available at Lulu.com and I will not be reproducing it here for you, but was nice enough to give you an overview should you want to debate the issue.

[Michael]

There's no proof here....  Michael's (interesting - I'd not run into that one before) view is a possibility, as are all of the other parallel stories that are more commonly known.

My view is that the result of Akhenaten's heresy put a bunch of people on the road.  That likely generated some monotheism where they ended up.  The desert (sorry, guys, "manna" doesn't really mean much here) just wouldn't support more than a very small group.  Meantime, it's starting to look like the "Hebrews" may have been the Hyksos, or may have been mercenaries that left (probably in slightly larger numbers) around the same time.

They drifted into Canaan, and needed a history.  No Inernet to debunk it, so it stuck....

What's interesting here, sometimes, is the "warts and all" approach to history that we sometimes see in the Bible.  "Amalek" being a good example....  Modern historians would try to gloss over things like that....

There is, I think, too little other evidence....  I don't expect to see extensive artifacts or "Historical Markers", but the Egyptians not only leave out the Exodus, which is understandable, but the prior presence of a large group of Hebrew slaves.  Almost all we know is from the Joseph story....

(I'm no farmer, but how do you store grain for seven years?)

The Bible is largely a work of faith.  Those who wrote it were seeking explanations, or using explanations that oral historians had provided.  No Internet, no CNN, no newspaper morgues, and no written texts to speak of.  They wanted, and needed a good story.  We have the benefit of more than 2000 years of hindsight, and perhaps 200 years of serious archaeology and study of the past, and can find better explanations.

Doesn't really change anything, IMHO.  If you say that "God created the Universe", it's really irrelevant which finger he used, or whether it's "steady state" or "big bang".  Either you believe that God did or didn't do it....  We should be past the "angels on the head of a pin" arguments.

Just IMHO....

(Credentials:  A degree in Philosophy and the Psychology of Religion, with minors in History and Law Enforcement.  And more than 30 years in Computers.  "Armed Programmer"....  Good thing I found a real job....  IAC, enough education to realize that I don't know everything, and a willingness to listen.)

Regards,

Stu.

There is no evidence to prove the Hebrews were Hyksos. In fact the Canaanite rites on which the Passover rites were based were already in existance prior to any Hyksos expulsion.

The other problem is that the Hykosos left in the Bronze Age. Heshbon, a city conquered by Moses was an Iron Age city. It did not exist at that time. Also Ai, a city destroyed by Joshua was not occupied at this time. It had been destroyed in the Early Bronze Age, about the same time the walls of Jericho fell down.

There is no evidence the Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt.

Then there is the nasty anchronism of the use of pitch to seal the basket of Moses, a substance that wasn't used in Egypt at that period.

I respect good detective work more than philosophy to decide the matters of historical truths.

[RamboPreacher]

Certainly this is not anything close to my complete knowledge. That would take a book. ...

interesting examples of interpretation.  you still have shown no proof.  and in fact continue to make apriori statements; though you do say that "the cosmic myth" is your assertion - I thank you for that concession of accuracy.

That's okay, I understand that believing something (even if you state it as a matter of fact and assume that everyone else must believe the same) is your prerogative - I will just agree to disagree.  and your interpretation is interesting.

Like I said I have written a book on the topic as my proof. It is available at Lulu.com and I will not be reproducing it here for you, but was nice enough to give you an overview should you want to debate the issue.

so if i write a book on a topic, it is proof and everyone must now believe me?  or is it the evidences that are shown/used to show why i draw the conclusions i do?

[SMMAssociates]

There is no evidence to prove the Hebrews were Hyksos. In fact the Canaanite rites on which the Passover rites were based were already in existance prior to any Hyksos expulsion.

Michael:

Guess one could say that there's no evidence that they weren't , but I'm just pulling your chain a little.  My feeling is that the Hebrews may have been leftover Hyksos....  Note the word "feeling"....  Or, perhaps they just followed the Hyksos in.  The whole Joseph story is probably just a story....

The other problem is that the Hykosos left in the Bronze Age. Heshbon, a city conquered by Moses was an Iron Age city. It did not exist at that time. Also Ai, a city destroyed by Joshua was not occupied at this time. It had been destroyed in the Early Bronze Age, about the same time the walls of Jericho fell down.

I'm disinclined to believe anything when cities are named, except for some of the biggies.  WAY off topic, but elsewhere I saw a reference to "Liberty Township" some time back, and thought, 'wow - that's just ten miles away."  Then I noticed that the author's street references were "wrong".  Seems that there's also a "Liberty Township" near Columbus or something like that....  If, 1000 years from now, somebody said that "the 'great Stu' spoke about 'Liberty Township'", some confusion may be possible ....

(Being a megalomaniac has it's advantages - try it....

There is no evidence the Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt.

No argument there....  I really find it hard to believe that the Egyptian documentation doesn't include something.  I wouldn't expect a list of names and home towns (although it wouldn't really surprise me - teach the Egyptians to write and they get carried away), but the few references we have don't add up to much.

Then there is the nasty anchronism of the use of pitch to seal the basket of Moses, a substance that wasn't used in Egypt at that period.

Another "maybe" in my view.  The Hebrews were outsiders, and may have known about or used pitch at home....  Accurately, I think, you can say that "probably no Egyptian wrote this story without special knowledge".  Even that way, most likely the original authors (yes, I realize it would have been oral tradition, so when/how pitch got into the story is iffy) thought "well, you have to seal that basket with something", and may have been familiar with pitch and not the papyrus method.  Don't forget, too, that this is a parallel story with other groups at the time, and pitch may have been something magical to the storytellers - it's also in the Noah story....

It is, IMHO, real hard to take anything literally when looking at fine details here.  Storytellers sometimes "adjust" their tales to be contemporary, or just to fill in how big the dragon was....  (If you accept "textual criticism", you can also see "adjustmetns" all over the Old and New Testaments, and particularly in an analysis of the Synoptics - it's fairly clear that they were targeted at specific audiences.)

(Textual criticism is a whole 'nother thread....)

I respect good detective work more than philosophy to decide the matters of historical truths.

Amen....  "The Bible Says!" is not a proof that I'll put a lot of money on ....  What's tough here is that a lot of time has passed, and there are a lot of people making big points out of a couple of spearpoints....

Regards,

Stu.

[archaeologist]

well i am inclined to agree with david down and john ashton theorytalked about intheir book 'pharaohs unwrapped'. the think the amorites (i believe i quoted that correctly) after losing to israel in battle went down to egypt and found the pharaoh and his army demolished and walked in and took over.

i believe manetho mentions this as well when he says 'the hyksos came and took over with no fighting' (paraphrase).

[Michael]

Certainly this is not anything close to my complete knowledge. That would take a book. ...

interesting examples of interpretation.  you still have shown no proof.  and in fact continue to make apriori statements; though you do say that "the cosmic myth" is your assertion - I thank you for that concession of accuracy.

That's okay, I understand that believing something (even if you state it as a matter of fact and assume that everyone else must believe the same) is your prerogative - I will just agree to disagree.  and your interpretation is interesting.

Like I said I have written a book on the topic as my proof. It is available at Lulu.com and I will not be reproducing it here for you, but was nice enough to give you an overview should you want to debate the issue.

so if i write a book on a topic, it is proof and everyone must now believe me?  or is it the evidences that are shown/used to show why i draw the conclusions i do?

Frankly I don't care if you believe me or not. I doubt if anyone here believes me. However, I have studied the idea intently and have written a well sourced 110,000 word book on the topic to back me up. If I speak of it as if it true, it is because I know I can back up my statements. But you do realize as do I that overturning history requires more proof than I can list in a forum post. So if you don't accept the idea, that is fine, but as time goes on I will be making more posts to show my position. I don't know if something like this can ever be "proven" to the satisfaction of some narrow minded Bible-believing Christian, and I don't even want to try. Not that I include you in that company, but you see my point.

[Michael]

There is no evidence to prove the Hebrews were Hyksos. In fact the Canaanite rites on which the Passover rites were based were already in existance prior to any Hyksos expulsion.

Michael:

Guess one could say that there's no evidence that they weren't , but I'm just pulling your chain a little.  My feeling is that the Hebrews may have been leftover Hyksos....  Note the word "feeling"....  Or, perhaps they just followed the Hyksos in.  The whole Joseph story is probably just a story....

The other problem is that the Hykosos left in the Bronze Age. Heshbon, a city conquered by Moses was an Iron Age city. It did not exist at that time. Also Ai, a city destroyed by Joshua was not occupied at this time. It had been destroyed in the Early Bronze Age, about the same time the walls of Jericho fell down.

I'm disinclined to believe anything when cities are named, except for some of the biggies.  WAY off topic, but elsewhere I saw a reference to "Liberty Township" some time back, and thought, 'wow - that's just ten miles away."  Then I noticed that the author's street references were "wrong".  Seems that there's also a "Liberty Township" near Columbus or something like that....  If, 1000 years from now, somebody said that "the 'great Stu' spoke about 'Liberty Township'", some confusion may be possible ....

(Being a megalomaniac has it's advantages - try it....

There is no evidence the Hebrews were ever slaves in Egypt.

No argument there....  I really find it hard to believe that the Egyptian documentation doesn't include something.  I wouldn't expect a list of names and home towns (although it wouldn't really surprise me - teach the Egyptians to write and they get carried away), but the few references we have don't add up to much.

Then there is the nasty anchronism of the use of pitch to seal the basket of Moses, a substance that wasn't used in Egypt at that period.

Another "maybe" in my view.  The Hebrews were outsiders, and may have known about or used pitch at home....  Accurately, I think, you can say that "probably no Egyptian wrote this story without special knowledge".  Even that way, most likely the original authors (yes, I realize it would have been oral tradition, so when/how pitch got into the story is iffy) thought "well, you have to seal that basket with something", and may have been familiar with pitch and not the papyrus method.  Don't forget, too, that this is a parallel story with other groups at the time, and pitch may have been something magical to the storytellers - it's also in the Noah story....

It is, IMHO, real hard to take anything literally when looking at fine details here.  Storytellers sometimes "adjust" their tales to be contemporary, or just to fill in how big the dragon was....  (If you accept "textual criticism", you can also see "adjustmetns" all over the Old and New Testaments, and particularly in an analysis of the Synoptics - it's fairly clear that they were targeted at specific audiences.)

(Textual criticism is a whole 'nother thread....)

I respect good detective work more than philosophy to decide the matters of historical truths.

Amen....  "The Bible Says!" is not a proof that I'll put a lot of money on ....  What's tough here is that a lot of time has passed, and there are a lot of people making big points out of a couple of spearpoints....

Regards,

Stu.

You do realize there were numerous Asian expulsions from Egypt. While the Hyksos is the most famous there were others. Im not an archaeologist. I accept their location of cities and dating until proven otherwise. If you build a theory on anything but that then the burden of proof is on you to prove the archaeologists wrong.

In that regard it is plain to see that there was no historical period or even two combined historical periods which could have claim to the conquered cities. There is at least 3 periods. This fact in itself demonstrates there are 3 different periods of writing for this story. Scholars tend to assume the latest time as the time of writing, but in this case it is not correct. The text was a living document. Newer cities, such as Heshbon are introduced in between lines of Resumptive Repetition, and ancient technique used to add new material. The Joshua conquest of the 5 cities is done twice, only the second time the name sof some of the cities change. The story was written from several different time periods, the earliest period being the Early Bronze Age.

[RamboPreacher]

Certainly this is not anything close to my complete knowledge. That would take a book. ...

interesting examples of interpretation.  you still have shown no proof.  and in fact continue to make apriori statements; though you do say that "the cosmic myth" is your assertion - I thank you for that concession of accuracy.

That's okay, I understand that believing something (even if you state it as a matter of fact and assume that everyone else must believe the same) is your prerogative - I will just agree to disagree.  and your interpretation is interesting.

Like I said I have written a book on the topic as my proof. It is available at Lulu.com and I will not be reproducing it here for you, but was nice enough to give you an overview should you want to debate the issue.

so if i write a book on a topic, it is proof and everyone must now believe me?  or is it the evidences that are shown/used to show why i draw the conclusions i do?

Frankly I don't care if you believe me or not. I doubt if anyone here believes me. However, I have studied the idea intently and have written a well sourced 110,000 word book on the topic to back me up. If I speak of it as if it true, it is because I know I can back up my statements. But you do realize as do I that overturning history requires more proof than I can list in a forum post. So if you don't accept the idea, that is fine, but as time goes on I will be making more posts to show my position. I don't know if something like this can ever be "proven" to the satisfaction of some narrow minded Bible-believing Christian, and I don't even want to try. Not that I include you in that company, but you see my point.

please read this post:
faith or evidence
for more about how I feel about your "apriori statements".  you have as much to your opinion as the next person, but you seem to be making an assumption that everyone must believe as you do when post, which is a false dichotomy.  maybe take smaller pieces to try to explain.  instead of starting at the base of the pyramid, try starting at the top.