Patristic etc. Revising of Chronolgy from NT to Egyptian Exodus of Hebrews

[Brianroy]

Some Theophilus to Autolycus literary insights.

“…in the land of Canaan there was a city, by name Haran. And in these days [from the dating of Haran], Pharaoh, who by the Egyptians was also called Nechaoth, was first king of Egypt, and thus the kings followed in succession.”
Theophilus to Autolycus, 2.31

Holy Land Photos

And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his nativity, in Ur of the Chaldees.(Genesis 11:28).

In other words, the first king of Egypt preceded Abraham’s visit by less than one generation, according to the records available to Theophilus. Therefore, Egypt is not older in its formation as a nation in the making than Terah, the father of Abraham.


For it was fit that they who wrote should themselves have been eye-witnesses of those things concerning which they made assertions, or should accurately have ascertained them from those who had seen them; for they who write of things unascertained beat the air.
For what did it profit Homer to have composed the Trojan war, and to have deceived many [about deities, etc.]; or Hesiod, the register of the theogony of those whom he calls gods; or Orpheus, the three hundred and sixty-five gods, whom in the end of his life he rejects, maintaining in his precepts that there is one God?
Theophilus to Autolycus 3.2

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“And I will inquire of you, my friend, how many Jupiters exist.
 For there is, firstly, Jupiter surnamed Olympian,
then Jupiter Latiaris,
and Jupiter Cassius,
 and Jupiter Tonans,
and Jupiter Propator,
and Jupiter Pannychius,
and Jupiter Poliuchus,
and Jupiter Capitolinus;
and that Jupiter, the son of Saturn, who is king of the Cretans, has a tomb in Crete,
 [still present in Theophilus day, T to A, 2.3]
but the rest, possibly, were not thought worthy of tombs.”
Theophilus to Autolycus, 1.10


… Plato… legislates in … The Republic, that the wives of all be common, using the precedent of the son of Jupiter and the lawgiver of the Cretans,
Theophilus to Autolycus, 3.6


For why should I recount the impurities of … Jupiter Latiaris thirsting for human blood, or …of Jupiter, surnamed Tragedian, and how he defiled himself, as they say, and now is worshipped among the Romans as a god?
Theophilus to Autolycus 3.8



Thallus mentioned Belus, king of the Assyrians, and Saturn, son of Titan
 
[Armais /Danaus was this Saturn: And the country was called Egypt from the king Sethos. For the word Sethos, they say, is pronounced “Egypt.” And Sethos had a brother, by name Armais. He is called Danaus, the same who passed from Egypt to Argos…. T to A. 2.20]

, alleging that Belus with the Titans made war against Jupiter [the Cretans]and the so-called gods in his alliance; and on this occasion he says that Gyges, being defeated, fled to Tartessus.

At that time Gyges ruled over that country, which then was called Acte, but now is named Attica. And whence the other countries and cities derived their names, we think it unnecessary to recount, especially to you who are acquainted with history.

That Moses, and not he only, but also most of the prophets who followed him, is proved to be older than all writers, and than Saturn and Belus and the Trojan war, is manifest. For according to the history of Thallus, Belus is found to be 322 [261 actual] years prior to the Trojan war [ca. 1293 B.C.].

But we have shown above that Moses

 [sic, should be Jacob at 729 - 810 years prior to the 1032 B.C. sack of Troy -- Brianroy]

 lived somewhere about 900 or 1000 years before the sack of Troy. And as Saturn and Belus flourished at the same time, most people do not know which is Saturn and which is Belus.

Some worship Saturn, and call him Bel or Bal, especially the inhabitants of the eastern countries, for they do not know who either Saturn or Belus is.

And among the Romans he is called Saturn, for neither do they know which of the two is more ancient—Saturn or Bel.
Theophilus to Autolycus 3.29

This last quote is resolved in Isaiah, when the ancient Romans in Isaiah's day transported idols through Israeli ports to Babylon/Assyria.  The idols were of Saturn and called Belus by those purchasing such idols, and the two mixed. 

Danaus was the patriarch of a Greek faction which settled Sicily and Italy, as well as being the Patriarch the Tyrians and Carthaginians.  Hence, Danaus was a contributing or primary patriarch involved in 5 important or primary  ancient Mediterranean civilizations/ peoples.

We should perceive this possibility with the testimony of some men of the Old Testament having many wives and many children, such as Gideon, father to 70 male off-spring in Judges 8:30 -
"And Gideon had 70 sons of his body begotten: for he had many wives."
and that it only took Israel 215 years to populate until more than 2 millions had sprung from less than 70 of their males.

Danaus / Saturn, the once head of the navy of Egypt, defecting, in light of history therefore, could well have begotten and supported several times that number.   


Peace.
 

[Brianroy]

On another thread, the question regarding who the Caphtorites are, is brought up.  The answer: the Hyksos.   These are later also referred to as Cher'ethites.

Amos 9:7
 Are ye not as children of the Ethiopians unto me, O children of Israel? saith the L-RD. Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir?

Zephaniah 2: 5,
Woe to you inhabitants of the seacoast,
you nation of the Cher'ethites!
The word of the L-RD is against you, O Canaan, land of the Philistines;
and I will destroy you till no inhabitant is left.


Jeremiah 47:4
the day that is coming to destroy all the Philistines, to cut off from Tyre and Sidon every helper that remains.
For the L-RD is destroying the Philistines, the remnant of the coastland of Caphtor.



In 1904, A.H. Sayce speculated that a heiroglyphic at Kom Ombo

Egypt: Temple of Kom-Ombo, Aswan, Egypt

Egypt: Temple of Kom Ombo


 that listed Kaptar was not a transcription for Caphtor.  The site only dates to a New Testament Era. 

But others since, have read Kasluhet from the same New Testament era hieroglyphic work, and cited the possibility of being the Casluhim of Genesis 10:14 and I Chronicles 1:12


And Pathrusim, and Casluhim, (out of whom came Philistim,) and Caphtorim.

We see the Casluhim as cousins to the Caphtorim as the Hyksos were cousins to the Aegean based Philistines.   And these in turn are related as cousins to the same family in which the giant Og (cf. Deut. 3:11) of Bashan was from.


In Genesis we see that the origin of Caphtor was first in mesopotamia: Out of that land went forth Asshur, and builded Nineveh, etc.  and a few verses later, our above verse.

The answer is that the Caphtorim are the Hyksos, who inhabited Egypt, are identified as assyrian in origin by Isaiah 52:4, and when they left Egypt, they (as the Rephaim / Nephilim) fathered giants such as Goliath (who, as a Philistine warrior/ally, fought David);  and the same race/family also fathered the legendary Cyclops (whose one eye was a defect found in gigantism). 

After leaving Assyria, the Hyksos settled Egypt in circa 1792 B.C.,
 colonized the ancient Aegean in the 1580s B.C.,
and then were expelled to the  coastlands of Canaan/Israel in 1551 B.C. less than a month after the Hebrew Exodus. 


" This whole nation was styled HYCSOS, that is, Shepherd-kings: for the first syllable HYC, according to the sacred dialect, denotes a king, as is SOS a shepherd; but this according to the ordinary dialect; and of these is compounded HYCSOS: but some say that these people were Arabians." Now in another copy it is said that this word does not denote Kings, but, on the contrary, denotes Captive Shepherds, and this on account of the particle HYC; for that HYC, with the aspiration, in the Egyptian tongue again denotes Shepherds, and that expressly also; and this to me seems the more probable opinion, and more agreeable to ancient history. [But Manetho goes on]: "These people, whom we have before named kings, and called shepherds also, and their descendants," as he says, "kept possession of Egypt five hundred and eleven years." After these, he says, "That the kings of Thebais and the other parts of Egypt made an insurrection against the shepherds, and that there a terrible and long war was made between them." He says further, "That under a king, whose name was Alisphragmuthosis, the shepherds were subdued by him, and were indeed driven out of other parts of Egypt, but were shut up in a place that contained ten thousand acres; this place was named Avaris." Manetho says, "That the shepherds built a wall round all this place, which was a large and a strong wall, and this in order to keep all their possessions and their prey within a place of strength, but that Thummosis the son of Alisphragmuthosis made an attempt to take them by force and by siege, with four hundred and eighty thousand men to lie rotund about them, but that, upon his despair of taking the place by that siege, they came to a composition with them, that they should leave Egypt, and go, without any harm to be done to them, whithersoever they would; and that, after this composition was made, they went away with their whole families and effects, not fewer in number than two hundred and forty thousand, and took their journey from Egypt, through the wilderness, for Syria; but that as they were in fear of the Assyrians [sic, probably Hittites], who had then the dominion over Asia, they built a city in that country which is now called Judea, and that large enough to contain this great number of men, and called it Jerusalem."
Josephus, Against Apion, 1.14

The Hyksos as Caphtorites  were brought up out of Egypt like the Hebrews, when their armies were drowned in the Red Sea.

  And when the Hebrews spied the land, after a divergence to Mount Sinai in Arabia,  theHebrew spies later  found the families (numbering about around 240,000) of these former masters at Avaris and Memphis an On of Egypt occupying the land of Canaan, and were sore afraid.

   When the malnourished and short in stature Hebrews stood next to one or several of these Hyksos having gigantism, it easily explains the context of being a grasshopper, when one is 4' 6' to 5' standing next to some one or a couple of people well over 7' in height.   

But the issue is who were the Caphtorites?  The Hyksos, once occupants of Syria/Assyria, who also came out of Egypt and Syria as did the Hebrew descendants of Abraham. 

[Brianroy]

In another thread, one writer uses the example of unsubstantiated and unsourced myths that followed prior historical writings or events as if it were "proof" the historical writings or events were myths.        Wow.

That is, if someone adopts a history and creates a myth about that history 800 years later...because the 800 years later writer made a mythological parallel, that automatically invalidates the history as myth.   

So if along such a logic we create a validation but fictional version of Adam and Eve, then we validate the story with Red Skelton's 1950's version of events:

Adam and Eve were created as the world's first couple who went into business together.

"They shared an apple...that was, "Community property".

They had a snake in the tree...that was, "over-head". 

After they got stripped of their assets, they applied fig leaves...which was, "a device to reduce interest".   

There we have it...a modern myth that revalidates Adam and Eve, and invalidates  all myths that come before this new myth as copycats of what was written 2,700 years later....   

Well, that is, according to how the one thread writer reasons his views on history and mythology. 

Sorry...such illogic doesn't fly, even if we can have fun in its example.

If we were hypothetically writing in a psychiatric forum, we might hypothetically call this application as: neo-logic redispositioning.

 Once we got the name for this new hypothetical (ka-ching) means of getting rich quick,  we would be obligated to then label it as a disease, in order that we might make ourselves and some psychiatriac institution (ka-ching) rich with a government grant in studying this "new label" on an old name (that we dare not say is anything else), so that we might be the recipients of tax-payers funding of  another bogus clinical study.   

And again, a new myth finds itself a birth-date to be born or originated on.



Example of Myth making revealed in history - Saturn

Tertullian, The Chaplet, .7

"Harpocration argues that Bacchus [who is identified in his origin as being ]the same as Osiris among the Egyptians, was designedly crowned with ivy, because it is the nature of ivy to protect the brain against drowsiness.

"But that in another way also Bacchus
 [i.e., Osiris the Egyptian --Amenophis (II) [/b, who according to Manetho ruled 30 years 10 months.  That is, circa  June 1422 B.C. to April 1391 B.C., was the Greek source for  Bacchyus, the "before there was viagra"  deity through wine, and  as Pluto, deity of the underworld.  His wife Greek Ceres was renamed Isis in Egypt, and called Demeter by the Romans].   

was the originator of the laurel crown (the crown) in which he celebrated his triumph over the Indians, even the rabble acknowledge, when they call the days dedicated to him the “great crown.”

If you open, again, the writings of the Egyptian Leo, you learn that Isis was the first who discovered and wore ears of corn upon her head—a thing more suited to the belly.

Those who want additional information will find an ample exposition of the subject in Claudius Saturninus, a writer of distinguished talent who treats this question also, for he has a book on crowns, so explaining their beginnings as well as causes, and kinds, and rites, that you find all that is charming in the flower, all that is beautiful in the leafy branch, and every sod or vine-shoot has been dedicated to some head or other; making it abundantly clear how foreign to us we should judge the custom of the crowned head, introduced as it was by, and thereafter constantly managed for the honour of, those whom the world has believed to be gods."
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Origins of gods / deities in Greece are traceable to a definitive year they had to be created after:


Tertullian, Apology .10

"No one of your gods is earlier than Saturn:
 from him you trace all your deities,
even those of higher rank and better known.

What, then, can be proved of the first, will apply to those that follow. So far, then, as books give us information, neither the Greek Diodorus or Thallus, neither Cassius Severus or Cornelius Nepos, nor any writer upon sacred antiquities, have ventured to say that Saturn was any but a man: so far as the question depends on facts, I find none more trustworthy than those—that in Italy itself we have the country in which, after many expeditions, and after having partaken of Attic hospitalities, Saturn settled, obtaining cordial welcome from Janus, or, as the Salii will have it, Janis.

 The mountain on which he dwelt was called Saturnius;
the city he founded is called Saturnia to this day;
last of all, the whole of Italy,
after having borne the name of Oenotria,
was called Saturnia from him. 

He first gave you the art of writing, and a stamped coinage, and thence it is he presides over the public treasury.  But if Saturn were a man, he had undoubtedly a human origin; and having a human origin, he was not the offspring of heaven and earth.


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Tertullian, Ad Nations 2.12

For the origin characterizes all that comes after it.

Now this origin of your gods dates, I suppose, from Saturn.

  [In a prior post, I have identified this Saturn as Armais / Danaus, who was in the year 1293 B.C.   Therefore, the origin of Greek 'god / deification'  mythology began no earlier than 1293 B.C. !!!][/color]

And when Varro mentions Jupiter, Juno, and Minerva, as the most ancient of the gods, it ought not to have escaped our notice, that every father is more ancient than his sons, and that Saturn therefore must precede Jupiter, even as Cœlus does Saturn, for Saturn was sprung from Cœlus and Terra.

  [Hence, Tertullian isolates for us that the oldest deification was of Armais as Saturn among the Greeks. 

Other deifications came later, after 1293 B.C., also based, at the first, upon reinventing real people in real history.

 That is, it began as a monotheistic worship of a singular Patriarch that graduated to polytheism. The monotheism came first.]

[Elijah]

Hyksos 15th Dynasty 1633-1525 B.C.

Salitis
Bnon
Apachnan (Khyan)
Iannas (Ianassi son of Khyan)
Apophis (Auserre Apepi)
Assis

 16th Dynasty  (allegedly Sinai related)
32 vice-kings (?) contemporary to the 15th -17th dynasties (?).


Thebes 17th Dynasty
1606-1539
  The last 3 were:

Tao I (Senakhtenre) thought to have died around 1580 B.C.
Tao II (Sekenenre)   thought to have died in the 1550's
Kamose (Wadjkheperre) could be Ahmose (chronology overlap)

 New Kingdom

18th Dynasty
Eighteenth Dynasty 
Ahmose I (Nebpehtyre) 1550 BC – 1525 BC

THe explosion greatest of all Thera explosions was in 1514 BC before the exodus in April 1513 BC. As for dating Salitis and Bnon may i say that James Ussher lived longer than you and long before you and he had no problem with his Flood being 2349 BC and yet placed Salitis and Bnon at 2066 BC.
HIs chronology is basically 20 years earlier than all dates from Flood to Jerusalems destruction. Yet you do not see him pushing Hyksos into 1400s for a 1313 BC exodus, or pushing Hyksos back to 1700s for those who thought exodus was 1793 BC or 1664 BC or 1554 BC.
Basically i rather stick with the fact it is 517 years from Pelegs death causing division and flight of kings until the exodus, rather than play games with Gods data as if we have all the time in the world to figure current lifes end.
(2030-1513 BC Hyksos choose to be part of Israel and they get the hell OUT)
The Christ is here it is time to get on their ark even if you dont agree with them it will save you. Mock, laugh, scoff, point out all they do wrong or know wrong and youll die just because you are not with them where it is safe.
ELIJAH
Call it psychic, call it luck, call it Satanic,
beware March 10 betting odds successful Osama BIn Laden attack
shut your computers off before then. stash some cash.
Live Free Die Hard

[Brianroy]

In the region of Haran, W.F. Albright informs us of the fact that the Hebrews came from the Balikh Valley.   

The area in focus is the Balikh and Habur Rivers,  two tributaries of the northern Euphrates River.

Ancient Haran (Gen. 11:31; 12:5) is a apparently a known site along the Balikh River. 

Cuneiform documents are said  to list this site as prospering in what archaeologists  apparently date as the 1800s and 1700s B.C.   The 1800s B.C. being about the time that Jacob had visited there.

   For whatever reason, the name Harran is synonymous with Harranu as a  primary  fork between Damascus,  Nineveh, and Carchemish; and may be (as its translation - "road" implies) one of the  starting points for the oft  two-oarred  circular leather boats of the north country.  These shield boats were famous in Herodotus day for economically transporting goods down the Euphrates up to and well over 80,000 lbs, including pack animals to haul the leather crafts back up river to start all over again.  Unlike the acacia wood constructed craft used in Egypt,  which floated the Nile River, needing substantial crews for their oars and masts and return trip against the Nile current...the Euphrates means of transporting goods from northern Syria to points "south" like Babylon was much more economical. 
 
 Terah's name (that of Abraham's father) is found in the Balikh Valley at  Til-sa-Turah, the "ruin of Terah".

William Foxwell Albright, in his book, The Biblical Period from Abraham to Ezra, writes that the tracing of the Patriarchs (Abraham, and his father Terah) directly back to the Balikh Valley in northwestern mesopotamia, is beyond reasonable doubt."

Even in modern times, there is still research occuring in the region. 

Mesopotamia

Oriental Institute | EXPEDITION TO EGYPT, 1919

http://www.ajaonline.org/pdfs/110.1/AJA1101_Akkermans.pdf

We have a great archaeological likelihood  as to the origin of the Hebrew peoples as having some kind of origin (i.e., settlement) here, as the Bible says. 

We have a great literary historic likelihood  offered  from the hostile ancient Roman historians, such as Tacitus, in 5.2 of his anti-semitic version of the history of the Jews,
testifies that the greater historic record of his day puts the Hebrews (as foreigners) who spent time in Egypt.

Tacitus: History: Book 5 [1]


For those who wish to know if there was a Jewish (i.e., Hebrew) presence in Egypt :  the literary historic record, even from hostile sources, is yes!

The discussion or debate then, should be NOT if there was an Exodus...but WHEN.

Peace.

 
 

[Elijah]

Harran
Harran was built by Haran the son of Terah, both
born in Ur, the father in 2148 BC in year 59 of
Reu Aanipada and the son in 2078 BC in the year
13 of king Elulu (creator of the intercalary month Elulu)
before the 25 year calendar was created (2018-1443 BC)
and the 19-year calendar of the Jews in 1443 BC and Ba bylon 1442 BC.

When Haran was 18 in 2060 BC in year 6 of IbbiSin
he was drafted from Ur by Narmer of Kish
to lay foundation of Marduk temple
in 180 year old Babel  and on to go build Ninevah.
12 years later he decided the area was good to
build his own city Harran in 2048 BC. But 19 years later
for the 49 year Julian moon his grandfather Nahor in
Ur coaxed him into returning to Ur to die in its mass
suicide believing that Peleg Mesanipada had gone to heaven.
This belief due to his being almost 240 and yet old and dead
with others his age dying despite their 275 year old parents
being young and alive and Noah 940.
Professor Wooley reveals that this is a forced suicide because
one of the princesses has her tinsel foil tiara still rolled up in
her hand instead of on her forehead.
The date for the suicide is C-14 to 2030 BC but the Egyptian memorial in Memphis for it is the date Koyak 25 on the Saturnalia. This is
Saturn passing Regulus on May 6 in 2029 BC. It actually loops
passing it in Sept 2030 BC too.

Haran thus died with son Lot left behind in Harran 11 years
before Abram his brother was born in 2018 BC. This is when
ReuAanipada had become father of Ur (successor of Peleg).
Before Reu died in 2000 BC, Babel paved Marduk street in
2009 BC to honor the equal 365x 360 days to 360x 365 days.
It also measured 52 years of Marduk temple as 90 degrees of Mars
in 24 orbits, six orbits per 13 years, as 780 days orbit and 360 day year
(2060-2009 BC)
To compete with this UrNammu set himself up as king of Ur to expand
Nannar ziggurat when Aanipada was 230 just 9 years before his death.
This is the famed 9 year old Abram who defied Marduk.
When Abram was 27 in 1991 BC Shulgi became king.
At this time Abram built a house in Harran to have a place
away from the disgust of Ur. He started to equate Shulgi's name
Dungi as crap, and was opposed to the idols used to represent
ways of tracking the planets. Each position having a different name
and image to represent it. He took his 17 year old sister as wife to
Harran with him. No doubt she stayed in Ur many times.
Meanwhile he kept in 48 years of contact with his nephew Lot who
was 11 years older than him. So when it says the men of Sodom did
not want old man Lot it is understandable because in 1919 BC
Abram was 99 and Lot was 110. It was at Shulgi's death that Abram disowned and sold his house in Ur, leaving nothing behind except what he disowned or sold. And he went to Harran to dwell for less than a year until his father died in this home he already owned for 48 years.
No one was going to talk him into suicide for his father. His brother
did it and left his son behind, and now being childless wasnt a sign to
go kill yourself so you'd be out of AmarSin's way. AmarSin (AmarPal) didnt like this and in 1936 BC tried to get them all back in his year 7.
Apparently Harran was freed from Ur which fell in 1900 BC. Thus
three years after his 127 year old mother Sarah died, then 140 year old Abram sent his servant to Harran in 1878 BC to get Isaac his cousin Rebekkah as wife. This was year 16 of 1st dynasty Babylon which had destroyed Ur in 1900 BC sending its Hindus fleeing to the Hindus river.
The city Harran was thus safe until the advance of Hamurabi. Thus
while Jacob was there from 1781-1761 BC, he noted that advance on Mari in 1763-1762 BC and he got the hell out. Whether being under Hamurabi was good or not, it was a violation of his alien residence. Although being
in Harran did not constitute alien residency from 1943-1900 BC, there was no Chaldean control from 1900-1761 BC, any return of Chaldean control would null their religious faith. Meanwhile, Jacob was excused in that his father Isaac carried that faith in Canaan during those 20 years. So what mattered is that Jacob could not be stuck in Harran should his father die. He must be in Canaan, not in Harran where Chaldea would rule again.
Joseph was 6, and 11 years later in 1750 BC when he was 17 then
Hamurabi died. Jacob forgot about Judah and was proclaiming Joseph would be that king of kings greater than Hamurabi. The result was a Joseph who became dead, and disqualified in his having Egyptian sons like Abram's son Ishmael was.
And thus the story of Harran. And one moves on to the story of Egypt. NOt only alien residency, but hey they become the savior to hlep get Hyksos out of Egypt too. And back to Canaan where it will not be alien residency but ownership. Take over. Well isnt this wrong???  The answer is please note all the ways they conquered were in a way that was at high odds that if God wants it it will happen... such as blow trumpets and eventually walls will fall. If so, God approves, if not then its not time. The way God approves is in that the city was too busy in pleasure and lack of moral to meet Gods physical natural laws which say unmortared stones must be kept up to par or they fall. We live in the same decay today. Neglect of natural law upkeep for self pleasure and exaustion from feeling that work is a slavery, taxed, and burdened, burned and abused. When disaster comes, no government will have people who will keep order. So the attack was regarded as by God when the factors were natural things... such as blowing trumpets at walls for 7 days. Or bashing water jars to watch them kill each other when the echo scares them and confuses them. Joshua is not to be shamed for learning well from Moses.

[Brianroy]

Regarding E's responses:

Marduk/Bel as Bel, appears datable as contemporaneous to the life of Armais/Danaus of Egypt.  Therefore, any presumptions and mythology attributed to such a character may perhaps be limited to only a time period thereafter. 

Since the Hebrews were interactive in Egyptian and Babylonian idolatry after the division of Israel, and the histories of Israel were intact (in the Torah) and hidden away in the House of the L-RD for around 400 years (2 Kings 22:8-11; 23:21-23)...being above reproach  and free from tampering...we can potentially charge the Babylonians of adopting Hebrew history and adpting their deities into the mythology of their own culture.

As late as "the  reign of Seleucus and Antiochus", copies of the cuneiform tablets of Hammurabi were being remade.   


Re: pp. 144 (e) -145 
        (half-way down the left column, p. 145 in the link below)

http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/cad_tet.pdf

If that is the case, there comes the question on the accuracy of the dating of cuneiform tablets and texts as old as they have been dated. 

In fact, we have  to then question if Marduk isn't simply a 13th century B.C. invention, some 700 years newer  than certain ones who post declare  -- without sourcing, or linking, I might add --as they speculate the age of the hodge-podge mixing of mythology they put forth as the most ancient as  if it were fact.

And these alleged traditions,such as 2000 B.C. etc.,  in turn, may indeed be based on (perhaps) rewritten and far expanded upon tablets created even more recently and some 1300 years later on, as the Gilgamesh Epic proves to be. 

Gilgamesh may well be the prime example of a few lines from an earlier period written into a supertext of 7 tablets by a later author some 1300 years after the first...if, that is, the first cuneiform portions are  genuinely  from the age of the Patriarchs in the first place. 

So, we see, we can just as much demand authenticity from the dating of the Babylonian and Assyrian texts as well.

 If that is the case...what if we then push up the dating of the  Sumerian texts from 3000 B.C. to 2000 B.C., to the age of Abraham?  What then?  Would there be any true conflict if we found the Babylonian and Sumerian civilzations were dated to be much older than they really are?  From here, we can really go wild in speculation.

I would rather keep to the historical argument and texts, and as needed, source and link or cite (or defend one's position using texts, etc., as needed).   I guess we can leave it at that.

Peace. 

[turanclancath]

Brianroy  really a joy to read your delightful reflexions on chronology.!!!!

I printed them to read  and enjoy them  this evening with a( 2,3 ?) good glass of Italian red wine.

thank you and  carry on .

and here an interesting link (you know it perhaps  i think )
about the differences in Egyptian Chronology.

18th Dynasty

turanclancath

[Brianroy]

http://www.bu.edu/anep/MB.html

This above link and the pdf. link below, are quite revealing of the conflicts within Egyptian Archaeology in the period of question.  The British Museum even comes flat out and says, "Hey guys, we got this slab, and are kinda having trouble translating the meaning."  As I quoted in the literary history of the Patristics, the slab is written allegorically and literally, in code and plainly...one for the priests (in code), one for the masses.  And yet, the British Museum links this pdf. with the conscious statement of "Yeah, we know Egyptian history...kinda...sort of...if we could only really read that Hieroglyphic stuff?" 
After all, the pdf. author writes:
"Any help from readers with the description and translation, with hints for further research on certain motifs or problems, or with additional information, especially for the bibliography, is very welcome."

http://www.britishmuseum.org/pdf/1b%20The%20Middle%20Kingdom.pdf

So, come on BAS/BAR Forum readers.  If anyone can read the slab, and figure it out...perhaps the British Museum will be grateful.  If we're really lucky, maybe they'll send us a couple of tea bags of Queen Victoria's personal favorite blends.   

I know...wishful thinking.  We hope....

Peace.

[Brianroy]

In the Torah, the Red sea of the Exodus of Israel is actually referred to as the “Reed Sea”. 

 In the Hebrew, the word for “Reed” is Soof  (Samekh-Vav- Pe), which in the first sense, means simply a “reed stalk”. In the second sense, it is also used as a verb to mean “to snatch away”; i.e., “to deliver”.  If we would use this verb in reference to Enoch and Elijah -- which we could -- we may even say that such “deliverance” would even mean “to rapture”.

Therefore, to view the deliverance of Israel through the Reed Sea, is a form of viewing the Doctrine of what constitutes a Rapture...an Exodus deliverance.   

The walls of water collapsing upon the pathway (be they standing up by the miraculous, or walled up like a first tsunami/tidal-wave) to deliverance shows that the War of the Heavens (Revelation 12:7-9; Judges 5:19-22) is fought primarily upon the roadways that lead to a Promised Land, be it in the heavens or upon the Earth. 


In 1361 B.C. ,  “Jabin”, king of Canaan (Judges 4:3; Josephus AoJ 5.5.1-2) and his general Sisera subdued Israel for the next 20 years” for the nation of what we later knew as Egypt.

 These vassals of Egypt, attached to those seeking possession of material wealth and lands, would be theologically the “sons of darkness” in Jewish mystic literature, as we have in the War Scroll of Qumran.  The term Baal, could sometimes appear to be applicable to an Egyptian deified ruler of lands and wealth, as he would have been known in the lands of Canaan...not unlike emperor worship in Asia in the age of Tiberius to Nero. It is uncertain if the title or the man was truly worshipped in either the Egyptian or the later Greco-Roman case.  The emphasis appears to be placed on an "essence" of a "living deity" over the deification of the man himself.

In 1341 B.C., there was a rise of the daughter of the voice ...the bat-qol or heavenly voice, and of “the sons of Light”. 

We see in Josephus AoJ 5.5.3-4, a confirmation that Israel was delivered to Deborah's chief administration, followed by her  commander Barak.   

The application of having a genuine “bat-qol” or “daughter of the (heavenly) voice” in Jewish theology, probably began here (in 1341 B.C.). 
This is in stark contrast to a “bar-qol” or “ben-qol”, “a Son of the (Heavenly) Voice”, which frightened / terrified  Israel to no end at the giving of the 10 Commandments at Sinai in Arabia...which in turn, gives us insight as to why Israel fell away from monotheism (at times) to adopt the Assyrian Bel who subsumed the more ancient name of Baal, as we see the Greeks do with the above mentioned “Jupiters”...and Bel's Queen or mistress, Asherah. 

The monotheistic Holy G-D of Israel frightened people...while the sex parties under the trees and upon high places, getting drunk or stoned, having little moral accountability...appealed to the inclination of the natural society.  Be it prohibition in the 1920s, the era of the 1960s, or the current degradation of society, we see these kinds of roller coaster or pendulum movements in mass societal morality that allow us to identify with the ancients as well. 

In the passage of Judges 5, we see that the events in Valley of  Jezreel precedes the great end of days theology of Armageddon as placed in the Apocalypse of John (Revelation).

“Came Kings. They fought.
Then the Kings in Canaan fought in Taanach [in the Valley of Jezreel],
by the water of Megiddo.
The unjust gain of silver, they took not.
From the heavens, fought the stars: [the angelic hosts]
from their courses, they fought with Sisera.
The torrential river Kishon swept them away.
That ancient torrential river, the torrential river Kishon.
Then from the galloping galloping of His mighty stallions
did the horses beat the hooves.
‘Curse Meroz’, said the Angel of YHVeH, ‘Bitterly curse its inhabitants,
for they did not come to the Divine assistance and help of YHVeH,
to the help of YHVeH (as to be) among the warriors and mighty men.’”
(Judges 5:18-23 -- translation mine)


In Gematria, the word “Sisera” (Samekh – Yod – Samekh – Rosh – Alef) holds a value of 331. This word is numerically synonymous with Ephraim (Alef – Pe -Rosh – Yod – Mem), which means “Doubly fruitful”; with CHaSHaBYaHU, which means “YH has regarded”; and with YiSHYaHU, which translates as “YH will either lend or borrow, with interest.” In the Gematriac synonym, those of Sisera are borrowed from Sheol (Shin – Alef – Lamed).  In effect, Sheol is the land of Egypt where the Hyksos- Nephillim (Hyksos fallen ones) fell. 

Further, the Song of Deborah informs us of the initial success of the powers of Darkness in this battle. In Gematria, Kishon (Qoph- Yod – Shin – Yod – Nun)  holds a value of 470. 

The definition of a “son of darkness” in Qumran theology can be found as based in rabbinic and priest code Gematriac synonyms to this word.
Hebrew has more than just the common utterance, and the priest codes imbedded into it.  Unlike Hieroglyphics, it is clear, concise, and often prophetical in both near and distant futures in all the same utterance.  Hebrew does not allow itself to be limited to present and past tenses only.  And if you cannot comprehend these things, you end up being defined as "a son of darkness" (as it were).  The light of understanding is either in you and in your eyes, or it is  twice dark and shriveled back..as if you were spiritually crippled and traif. 

  Kishon (after the value of 470) is found to be as Kimriyr  (Kaf -Mem – Rosh – Yod - Rosh), “an eclipse of blackness, twice intertwined and shriveled back”.

They  who are "sons of darkness" are defined as Yedithun  (Yod – Dalet – Yod – Tav- Vav – Nun), they who “use the hand meant for laud and worship”, to Arar  (Ayin – Rosh – Rosh)  “to demolish and make bare”, by Ashuq  (Ayin – Shin - Qoph) “pressing upon, quarreling with, and overflowing violently upon” the Sons of Light.

They do so along the Telem (Tav – Lamed – Mem), “the bank, or ridge of (the Heavenly sky-way), forming an accumulation.” 

 Cf. Telem with Mecillah, the levee like embankment (or dike-like) pathway spoken of in Isaiah 40:3

"The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God."

 and quoted by John the Baptist.


In other words, knowing the Day of the Great Deliverance, the "sons of darkness" will  lie in wait as a force that is Token  (Tav- Kaf-Nun), “a fixed and measured out / balanced quantity” of Kenath (Kaf – Nun Tav)  “Companions and colleagues” thought to get the job of ambushing done.

Yet, for all the intensity and fierceness of the battle, it is seen by GOD as but a Shetseph  (Shin – Tsaddai – Pe) , as but “a small outburst of anger”.

In effect, "the sons of darkness" appears just as descriptive of the betrayal of the short-term Sicarii zealots (which John's Gospel labels as "robbers") whom Josephus shows oppressed Israel for over 60 years following the breakdown of oppressive Herodian authority and secret police tactics after Herod I's death. 

In effect, the doctrine of the sons of darkness precedes Qumran and goes back, in principal (at least) to the times of the Judges.  It is also a doctrine that was NOT EXCLUSIVE to Qumran in Judaism...and well known to those who were priests.  John, the disciple of Jesus, had direct access to the High Priest at the height of Jesus' trial.  That makes John most likely a familial relation to the High Priest and a Kohen himself...which is validated further by a referencing that in Ephesus, John wore the garb and petalon of a High Priest and sacrificed there (implication being after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem).  But then that is another matter entirely.

Peace.

[Brianroy]

Biblical Archaeologist Reader,  Garden City: N.Y. Anchor Books 1961
pp. 106-108

KING JOIACHIN IN EXILE
W. F. ALBRIGHT

For twenty-five hundred years the unhappy fate of poor young
Joiachin (or Jehoiachin) has moved men to pity. At the age
of eighteen he became king of Judah, and he remained under
the control of his mother Nehushta until the end of his short
reign of three months. During his brief rule the country lay
at the mercy of the Chaldeans, against whose king Nebuchad­
nezzar the young king's father, Joiakim ( Jehoiakim), had re­
belled. The latter had apparently met a tragic end, probably
in a palace revolt, since his body was thrown outside the gates
of the city and left to lie there like the carcass of an ass ( Jer.
22:18-19; 36:30).

Not long afterwards (in 598-97 B.C.) Jeru­
salem was besieged by the Babylonian army. Prospects seemed
so dark that the king, his mother, and the principal officials
surrendered and were carried as captives to Babylonia, along
with thousands of people, the flower of the land.

Though the men of Judah regretted his departure and many
of them are said to have preferred Joiachin and his fellow ex­
iles greatly to the "bad figs" ( Jer.24) which remained in
Judah, Joiachin never returned to his native land, but died in
exile. Thirty-seven years after his surrender to the Chaldeans
he was released from prison by Nebuchadnezzar's son Evil­
merodach, and was given preferential treatment: "His chair
was set above the chairs of the (captive) kings who were with
him in Babylon" ( II Kings 25:27-29). The names of seven sons
of Joiachin , born "(while he was) a captive (I Chron. 3:17, Hebrew text),
are known; the eldest of them was Shealtiel, father of Zerubbabel.

The first archaeological light appeared...when I dug up a broken jar-handle, stamped with a beautifully carved seal inscribed "Belonging to Eliakim, steward of Yaukin."  Immediately after the find, the eminent Palestinian archaeologist, Father L.H. Vincent, identified the name "Yaukin" as an abbreviated form of "Joiachin," just as the name "Yauqim" of contemporary documents is an abbreviation of "Joiakim"  (name of Joiachin's father).

...Dr. Ernest F. Weidner of Berlin...had informed me of his remarkable find...in a personal letter...of Babylon...[of the ruins of a building] near the famous Ishtar Gate.  Just southwest of the building...the vaulted rooms (fourteen in number)...the discovery of 300 cuneiform tablets relating mostly to the distribution of sesame oil and barley to individual recipients.

...between the years 595 and 570 B.C.  Among them are Yaukin, king of Judah, and five royal princes, as well as numerous other men of Judah;
 the sons of Aga, king of Ascalon in the land of the Philistines,
together with mariners and musicians from that seaport;
 mariners and craftsmen from Tyre, Byblus, and Arvad in Phoenicia; Elamites, Medes, and Persians;
many Egyptians, who were mariners, shipbuilders, horse-trainers and monkey-trainers...
Ionian carpenters and shipbuilders, all with Carian or Lycian (localities in Asia Minor) names; and finally a number of Lydians."

My point to this excerpt is that most readers are often one or two dimensional in their nation thinking of the ancients.   At Ras el Shamra, for example, we have Ugaritic texts including:  Sumerian-Akkadian  cuneiform, the native Ugaritic cuneiform, Egyptian hieroglyphics, Hittite hieroglyphics, and the Aegean - Semitic syllabary.

  Hence, we have the Sumerians, the Akkadians, Hurrians, Hittites, Egyptians, Ugaritic, and various Aegean-Semitic languages represented in one location...expressing an interdiversifying atmosphere and ancient world attitude that follows after the Exodus of 1551 B.C.

Level 1 dated from 1600-1200 B.C., while level 3 is thought to date to 2000-2500 B.C. (allegedly).  The archaeologists who excavated the site from 1929 onward, dug 5 levels of historic ages, they say.

 However, what is interesting, is that the tablets are generally placed at a post-Exodus era of only 1500 B.C. as the earliest dating of them,  and afterwards to 1200 B.C. 

Based on what we know of other cuneiform being copied, such as Hammurabi's code in the Hellenistic era...we would have to place the Ras El Shamra tablets and polytheism into the 1300s B.C., well after the Exodus, and accuse this multi-cultural center of "borrowing" from the Hebrews, rather than vice versa, as Dever and other scholars appear to be leaning.   Perhaps one day, when the data is more carefully evaluated, we will see the Biblical Literature and Historical Testimony, once again verified, as it should be. 

Peace.   

[Brianroy]

In his approach, Israel Finkelstein shows that he bases his dating on the dating of others and the disbelief of dating processes (after a fashion). 

http://megiddo.tau.ac.il/info/The_Bible_and_Radiocarbon_Dating_2005_Update.pdf

 In page 3 of the pdf., Finkelstein actually pushes up the date of prior archaeologists by about 100 years.  And what motivates this?  It is because he appears to waver to and fro that the religions of the Hebrews and the contemporaneous societies most greatly formulated their religions chiefly in the 12th and 11th Centuries B.C. as Landau does.

http://www.ulg.ac.be/archgrec/IMG/aegeum/aegaeum22(pdf)/40%20YASUR-LANDAU.pdf

In other words, his arguments are based more on a subjective bias while claiming otherwise...and clearly leave room to push back his own chronologies of Israel to a King David who -- as I show -- ruled Jerusalem in 1063 B.C., which Finkelstein dismisses (without authority) as a hamlet village.

[Brianroy]

You will note that the common theme is a transitional effect of great changes that occurs between the 1200s B.C. to the 1100s B.C. heavily relies on a proper dating of pottery. 

http://etd.unisa.ac.za/ETD-db/theses/available/etd-06222007-143655/unrestricted/dissertation.pdf

http://www.ulg.ac.be/archgrec/IMG/aegeum/aegaeum18(pdf)/20%20Killebrew.pdf


But what is the dating of pottery really based upon.  Divisions are made and claimed in increments as little as 25 years apart. 


http://www.aiar.org/docs/EkronSummary.pdf

And as the excavation of Ekron shows, there is a clear contradiction between the speculation of the dating of pottery and the historical literary testimony.  In fact, this institute dates Ekron as earlier than others are willing to concede...even though it is the same pottery in contention. 

Would someone unfamiliar with 19th and 20th century history be able to distinguish pottery fragments between the two centuries with the same assurance as we do of Ekron, and not date our last two centuries in the opposite direction as many hundreds of years apart?  No, they would not. 

The data is open to a re-evaluation and re-examination to justify or refute those who placed the pottery in the dates they did.  William Albright based his 1175 B.C. dating on what he knew at the time (in 1932), while the field of Biblical archaeology was still being developed and formed.  Egyptology based much of what they date in their chronologies on work completed by 1904, and have found themselves in a state of confusion.  Others have ignored the literal data left by the Biblical record and Josephus and others, and reinterpreted the evidence, not after the literary record, but after the opinions of other commentaries who base their opinions on other commentaries citing other commentaries...until we are buried in ticker-tape mounds of scholastic opinions.   

And more and more, we see the relationship between the Philistines and the Hyksos...who, as I have explained previously, were cousins of the same family; and their linguistic relationship becomes apparent in places such as Ras el Shamra. 

The period of Israel's 1300s to the 1090s B.C. was one in which the Judges were eventually replaced by the Priest and Prophet, and then by a king (Saul).

 In this period, from the formation of Nineveh in the 1300s B.C., we see the influence of Assyria develop the Mediterranean region into an  era of the Levant - Aegean - Assyrian polytheistic explosion.   The great period of ancient mythological development which was encapsulated with Homer of Egypt in the 800s B.C., though perpetuated well onward (often by Israeli - Jewish stock who chose to be pagan sects themselves)  to the fall of Jerusalem  under the Babylonians. 

We need a more sure and solid basis to date our pottery and archaeological sites.  That more sure basis is the Biblical Record as our chronological proof-check wheresoever it is applicable.

Peace.

[Brianroy]

I found a couple sites of interest in regard to their chronological assessments of the Exodus period. 

 This site below holds to a 968 B.C. date for Solomon's Temple, yet attempts to reason a 585 year (approximate) interim, and dates the Exodus to 1552 B.C. 

Although I disagree on how he goes about justifying 968 B.C., it appears that the greatest point from his assessments we find is that -- in regards to era...the one time period in Egyptology we need to focus upon is the likely dating of the 1550s B.C.,  when the Ethiopic Egyptian king of Thebes attacks the Hyksos king of Memphis and all points north, as the "near to" or "approximate" date of both Hyksos and Israelite expulsion, and count 480 years forward from there.

The Exodus Decoded - The Exact Dating of the Exodus from Egypt

=====================================================

This next site places the Hyksos expulsion in 1555 B.C., which we know from Josephus to have been contemporaneous with the Exodus.

IBSS - History - Egyptian

[Brianroy]

Holman Bible Dictionary


Goshen is primarily recognized as an area in the northeast sector of the Nile Delta. It was occupied by the Hebrews from the time of Joseph until the Exodus.

The original meaning of the term is still debated.

...The “land of Goshen” first appears in papyrus of the Twelfth Dynasty. See Egypt. Other believe it has a Semitic origin which might indicate that settlers were in the region by 2000 B.C. or earlier.

If the term is derived from the Semitic root, gosh, it probably refers to fertile land suitable for both cultivating or grazing cattle. Twice (Genesis 47:6,Genesis 47:11) Goshen is described as the “best of the land.” In the latter passage it is equated with the “land of Rameses,” which was probably identical with or near to the “field of Zoan.”

... Zoan was apparently the Egyptian capital during the Hyksos period.
Goshen has been recognized by various names.

 (1) Goshen (Genesis 45:10; Genesis 46:34) is translated in the Septuagint “Arabian Gesem.” The change probably resulted from the translators identifying Gesem with Geshem (Nehemiah 2:19; Nehemiah 6:1-2,Nehemiah 6:6), the Arabian king who was Nehemiah's foe (see Geshem). Until recently, Goshen was believed to be Gesem in the Egyptian name of Arabia.

(2) Goshen is also rendered as Heroonpolis (Genesis 46:28) in the Septuagint. Joseph met his father there. Some scholars equate Heroonpolis with the Egyptian storage city, Pithom (Exodus 1:11). ...

 (3) At the time of the Exodus, the Hebrews were still in Goshen (Exodus 8:22; Exodus 9:26), but began their Exodus from Rameses (Exodus 12:37; Numbers 33:3), which was a city they helped to build (Exodus 1:11). Unfortunately little is known of the region prior to Rameses II. Possibly, the Hebrews settled here with the Hyksos during Joseph's time. Undoubtedly, Goshen, “land of Rameses,” refers to the land around the city of Rameses and in the vicinity of Pithom. (

4) It is generally agreed that Goshen is to be located in wadi Tumilat which stretches from the eastern arm of the Nile to the Great Bitter Lakes. Texts from the about 1250 B.C. describe how nomadic tribes moved from Edom past the Merneptah fortress in Teku to the wells of Pithom. ... Teku is wadi Tumilat. It is approximately 35 miles long and covers 900 square miles.

Goshen is significant for biblical studies for four reasons. (1) The pharaoh assigned Goshen to Joseph's family when they entered Egypt (Genesis 47:6,Genesis 47:11). The “Hebrew Sojourn” occurred there. (2) The territory lay on a route from Palestine to Egypt. (3) It may be possible to date Joseph's entrance to Egypt with the Hyksos control of the Delta. (4) Both the two cities which the Hebrews built, Rameses and Pithom, and the Hyksos capital at Zoan are key issues for settling on a date for the Exodus.

Gary D. Baldwin


The earliest evidence for Asiatics is claimed in Egyptology to be at Rowaty / Rameses, late 12th Dynasty or mid 1800s B.C.  The structure is mainly mud-brick with animal compartment enclosures...suggesting merchant traders being housed at this location, as Joseph's brothers might have later done.

The wadi tumilat region was unhoused by Egyptians in terms of villas, etc., prior to the 19th dynasty...following the Hyksos expulsion in 1551 B.C. (others say 1560 B.C.).  430 years added to 1560 is 1990 B.C., when Abraham first set foot there...though de facto, it was in 1981 B.C. 

The wadi tumilat discards the notion of a 1445 B.C. or later Exodus, and forces us, through archaeological data, to reconsider an older Exodus in line with the statement of Isaiah 52:4 definition as to what kind of Egyptian oppressed the Hebrews there.  It was a Semitic or Assyriac peoples...i.e., it could only have been the Hyksos.

Hence, we are driven back in time and chronology by the facts, to the era of the Hyksos...and 1551 B.C. for the Exodus out, and 1511 B.C., for the entry of Israel under Jesus / Joshua into the Promised Land.

All other chronologies of the period following and previous, such as the Judges following and the Sodomic epic previous,  must therefore hang from the sure pegs of these dates in the 1500s B.C.

Peace.