Patristic etc. Revising of Chronolgy from NT to Egyptian Exodus of Hebrews

[Sekhmet]

It seems to me there is really a Bouquet of Exodus flowers.

Nearly every layman/women and scientist has his own Exodus date hypothesis
in  theory and facts ,and defended with much esprit !!!:) compliments for all.

Let me try to give a florilegium without  preference.

I. Brianroy:  circa 1551 +/-25 to 30 years.

II.Prof Collins cum suis : 1406 circa.

III.Sekmet: PepiII. was the Exodus  Pharao ( 2254/2165 ).

IV And then we have the deviant chronologys of Aartsma,Rohl and Velikovsky all with Exodus implications.

V.Some other data from circa 1400 till 1200.

VI.And last but not least ( as Jewish new year is coming next week )the traditional Jewish date for Exodus 1314/1313.

So really  a real bouquet of possibilitys defended with fervour and esprit and knowledge.

turanclancath

Ha, my dear sire Turanclancath, I enjoyed your Bouquet of Exodus flowers post and have taken my time to answer it.  To those living who I may have offended by dismissing your theories, please return the favor regarding The Archaeological Chronology of the Bible Lands as choreographed by myself.  Only I humbly ask that character assassinations be kept in check.  Let us debate the merits of the bouquet not dreams of fancy by unknown to each other authors we be.

I.  Brianroy’s date for the Exodus makes the Hyksos War of Egyptian Independence into a flight of slaves.  Documentation from the sands of Egypt makes clear that the Theban royal house wanted the Hyksos out of Egypt.  Scripture makes it clear that Egypts’ royal house wanted to keep the Hebrews in Egypt.  Therefore, it is logical to deduce that historically we moderns are looking at two different events.
 
II. Professor Collins date of ca. 1406 is in the face of historical discoveries hard to fathom.  1406 is towards the end of Thutmosis the III (the third Thutmosid King) to the beginning of his son Amenhotep II both very strong warrior Pharaohs that had exceptional victories in both the Levant and Nubia.  Neither Pharaoh, nor Egypt during this circa show any sign of destruction, depopulation, or wreckage of tombs as scripture claims Exodus’ Egypt is to be left.  In fact, archaeology shows just the opposite!  Any wonder why folks dismiss the Bible so easily today? 

Please allow me to quote from The International Review of Ancient Art and Archaeology MINERVA Volume 15 Number 13, May/June 2004, published in Great Britain.  Tutankhamun – The Golden Beyond.  Tomb treasures from the Valley of the Kings. by Andre Wiese the Curator of the Department of Ancient Egypt in he Antkenmuseum and the Sammlung Ludwig Basel, Switzerland.  Pages 9-13. 
“The exhibits are arranged chronologically, starting with the tomb good of Amenophis II, who ruled in the last quarter of the 15th century BCE (the 1400’s), and finishing with the some of the furnishings from the tomb of Tutankhamun.” From page 10.

Then from page 12. “In spite of the fact that Tutankhamun was buried in a non-royal tomb and that many of the furnishings were not originally intended for him, his ‘tomb treasure’ gives us a good impression of what royal tomb equipment looked like during the 18th Dynasty.  Many aspect of Tutankhamun’s tomb are consistent with the furnishings found
in the tombs of other kings, such as Thutmosis III (KV tomb 34), Amenophis II (KV Tomb 35), his son Thutmosis IV (KV tomb 43), then his son Amenophis III (KV tomb 22), and Horemheb successor of Ay,
the successor of Tutankhamun (KV tomb 57)….
…Compared to the era’s cannons of taste, Tutankhamun’s tomb could be
described as being more luxuriously equipped than those of his predecessors; it could even be described as opulent or over-loaded.  Especially the rich gold-plating of the shrines…. The omnipresence and the radiance of the color gold in Tutankhamun’s tomb is so dominant that its symbolic dimension immediately springs to mind: gold is, of course, the colour of the sun, which brings the dead back to life in the netherworld through the power of its rays."

  Emphsis is mine explaining relationships.
In fact, we can most likely date Professor Collins date of the Exodus.  To after the find in 1896 of the Merneptah Victory Stela in Egypt, by Sir Flinders Petrie, and the first extant mention of Israel was found outside of the Bible.  Thusly leading the scholars to debate endlessly as to whether Merneptah was speaking of Israel the escaped slaves from his father’s reign, or a later period.  Please note prior to this discovery Ramesses the Great, was considered the Pharaoh of the Exodus.  Placing the Exodus in the centuries of 1600 through the 1200, shows a shocking lack of knowledge of scripture, a willingness to so redact scripture that it is not worth reading as a history book of a specific people, or finally little knowledge of the archaeology of Ancient Egypt.

None of the three choices is possible for me.  I do know scripture, I do not believe it has been so redacted as to be a book of fairy tales and I do know Egyptianology.  Simply discarding, a chronology that dates back into the Greek and Roman era of dominance of the ancient world.  Then investigating the newer finds, from the last 20-30 years in Assyrian and Egyptian archaeology we can discover the truth.  That truth is very much as the Bible describes with a minor nod to redactors.  Like in my day of various translations, they updated their very ancient history.

III. Sekhmet’s chronology is based on knowledge of the latest discoveries from archaeology of the Biblical Lands.  It is based on respect for both scripture, archaeology, and the Jewish people whose history book it is.  Nor can I say really it is mine- it belongs to archaeology and those scholars that work the field; all I did was read and chronograph what I read.

IV.A  Dr. Aardsma is a theologian and while he does place Abraham into the 1st dynasty.  He romances the placement with Narmer the Unifier of Ancient Egypt and its first Pharaoh.  First Pharaoh = Abraham the father of the tribes of Ishmael and Jacob.  Romantic, however neither the numbers or the archaeology fit.
IV.B  Dr. Rohl is an archaeologist however he wants to realign Egyptian history to fit with the traditional chronology that dates back into the Greek and Roman era of dominance of the ancient world.  The world of archaeology does not allow for the tumbling of the multiple chronologies the Egyptians have handed down from beginning of the 5th dynasty.  For us moderns can have our cake and eat it too.
IV.C  Dr. Immanuel Velikovsky, a trained  psychiatrist, student and friend to Dr. Freud educated myself into seeing light bulbs turn on one after another.  Not that I believed everything he wrote and I did read almost everything he did write.  What the light bulbs were telling me was history did not have to be cut and dried as it was being painted in the early 1970’s.  He gave me hope and kept my young historical yearnings fired as I slipped into motherhood.  I will always be beholden to Dr. Immanuel Velikovsky.

V.  Addressed above.

VI. Have you read the post on the origin of the Jewish calendar? Jewish Calendar Origins  Those that have, know it was developed under the yoke of Greek/Roman dominate thought of a Young Earth Creation.  It like the traditional Christian Chronology that shares the same origin can be dismissed.

Very nice as always and have a nice day.

[turanclancath]

Dear Lady Sekhmet.!

Thank you for the apprecation of my postings and the compliments.
I learn so much new things in discussing is this friendly real academic way as we do.


Again you show that how important the study of history is in discussing whatever ( from Biblical Archeology till modern politics ).

I enjoy it the postings of  You,  Brianroy ,Kathey and many others.

In my fathers house are many rooms ( so by memory a free bible citation )
so we can have   different opinions  in unity ( that is faith ).

Its a pity that you all dont live in Holland then we could drink many good glasses of wine and discuss .

Holland is only a small county and my life long experience is that discussions with friends in a personal atmosphere are wonderfull .
But let us be thankfull for the internet.
So a toast of a good glass of french merlot to you all   it.s 5 pm here

and a flower for you in this florilegium.

turanclancath

[Brianroy]

        The Eruption of Thera: Date and Implications
        —
        The Thera Foundation
    

calls for a rethinking of chronology.


From past radiocarbon dates, and the shape of the calibration curve between c. 1625-1525 BC, there appear two possible results: an ambiguous result compatible with both a high or lower chronology ... or a result compatible with the 17th century BC radiocarbon analysis...The weighted average from the five dates with carbon-13 normalization in the central 12 (P-2791, P-2793, P-2795, K-3228, K-4225) is c. 3351 ± 32 BP. Calibrated on the Pearson and Stuiver (1986) curve this yields: c. 1687-1618 BC. The weighted mean of the five dates on samples pre-treated with NaOH in the central 12 (P-1889, P-1892, P-1894, K-3228, K-4225) is c. 3330 ± 25 BP. Calibrated on the Pearson and Stuiver (1986) curve this yields c. 1676-1609, 1552-1547 BC. [/b]

1552-1547 B.C. -  for those trusting Carbon dating;  or within 150 years for those that don't as much (from 1687 or 1676 B.C. worst case scenario), still puts 1551 B.C. as more highly likely than a 1400s dated Exodus.  That is, Santorini / Thera may well have blown (like Krakatoa) and contributed to the Exodus events in Egypt after all.   



 James B. Pritchard's "Ancient Near Eastern Texts"   Princeton, 1969, lists on pp. 252-253 the stela of the Seti family at Tanis, dedicated by Ramesses II, in which he lists his family struggle as Ra / Re 's representative as being 400 years old.

...(5) His majesty commanded the making of a great stela of granite bearing the great name of his fathers, in order to set up the name of the father of his fathers (and of) the King Men-maat-Re, the Son of Re: Seti Mer-ne-Ptah, (Seti I) and abiding forever like Re every day: Year 400, 4th month of the third season, day 4,' of the King of Upper and Lower Egypt....


  That is, beginning 400 years prior, Ram II's ancestor was a high priest of Ra/Re who sparked the revolt against the Hyksos.   Depending on when we date the stela, this will determine when the revolts of Egypt against the Hyksos began...and it took many decades to succeed.

on p.231, we read a proclamation which says:

"...since the Asiatics [the Hyksos]  were in the midst of Avaris of the Northland, and vagabonds [the Hebrews] were in the midst of them, overthrowing that which had been made. They ruled without Re, and he did not act by divine command down to (the reign of) my majesty. (Now) I am established upon the thrones of Re....

The Jews are listed in Egyptian terminology, not as Jews or Asiatics, but as bums and vagabonds (depending upon the translator).   Have Egyptologists followed upon this "vagabond" terminology...the ones who were in the midst of the Hyksos Asiatics and who also overthrew them?


There may be those who wish to espouse different dates than me by centuries in regard to the Exodus...but the historical record can be reasonably interpreted to support my thesis.  That's all I need to do. 

In regard to my Egyptian date support, we can always bring up  Tell el-Yahudiyeh, and others, which even the Israeli Antiquities Authority says falls into the 30 year criteria some may pine for. 

Peace.

[Sekhmet]

Dear Lady Sekhmet.!

Thank you for the apprecation of my postings and the compliments.
I learn so much new things in discussing is this friendly real academic way as we do.


Again you show that how important the study of history is in discussing whatever ( from Biblical Archeology till modern politics ).

I enjoy it the postings of  You,  Brianroy ,Kathey and many others.

In my fathers house are many rooms ( so by memory a free bible citation )
so we can have   different opinions  in unity ( that is faith ).

Its a pity that you all dont live in Holland then we could drink many good glasses of wine and discuss .

Holland is only a small county and my life long experience is that discussions with friends in a personal atmosphere are wonderfull .
But let us be thankfull for the internet.
So a toast of a good glass of french merlot to you all   it.s 5 pm here


and a flower for you in this florilegium.

turanclancath

My dear sire, it is always a pleasure to discuss matters in a polite manner.
While Holland might be a small county it is better at keeping the sea from swamping it than the USA.  It would be nice if we could all meet over those glasses of wine, I fear though my Native American ancestry would kick in and I would make a fool of myself

I forewarn you sire, I am preparing a reply about the Iron chariots thread.  You picked an interesting time for Deborah considering you have read Robert Drews The End of the Bronze Age never fear though- I am working on it.  PS It is nice to have you back Turanclancath.

[Sekhmet]

Good day my dear Brianroy,

I deeply appreciate the link to The Thera Foundation, my dream is to retire on Santorini one day and write my historical fiction on ancient Egyptian Queens.  Black and pink beaches, hurricanes, and an active volcano what more can a person born in Japan, Hawaiian influenced grown up in Florida want?  Ha!  For that day! 

I noticed that the dates of the references are rather dated to the 1980’s, while the website is dated to 2006.  Please sir take no offence, a chronologist notices things like that.  Have you by chance ever read the book by Walter L. Friedrich (2000)  Fire in the Sea The Santorini Volcano Natural History and the Legend of Atlantis. (Alexander R. McBimey, trans.).  Cambridge originally printed in German in 1997.  It is a beautiful book based on geology and well documents the earlier date of the destruction of the island in the mid-1600, or 17th century. 

When, my teeth hurt sir, I go to the dentist, not the podiatrist.  Archaeology is a soft science; geology is a hard science.  The difference being the way facts are decided.  I can cite numerous examples of archaeological mistakes based on excited exclamations of discovery, only to be redacted when more facts are discovered.  In the hard sciences, this happens only rarely; and normally becomes corrected quickly as others in the field try to duplicate the results.  Therefore, I must go with the geology and not what archaeology wants; needs the lower date.  Which in my, humble opinion is to support the updated ancient chronology of Biblical chronology. 

The Egyptian Queen I have been most interested in most of my life is none other than Ankhesenamun, the widow of Pharaoh Tutankhamun.  I am very well versed in 18th Dynasty and the 19th Dynasty origins.  The origins of the Ramessid Pharaohs are not clearly known, it is known that the family god was Seth not Ra.  Had you read the entire stela from James B. Pritchard's "Ancient Near Eastern Texts"   Princeton, 1969, pp. 252-253.  I do believe you would have discovered this.  Ramesses I held among his many titles of High Priest of Seth and Overseer of all the Prophets, making his way to the throne of Egypt upon Pharaoh Horemheb’s death easier.

Then we must consider what was happening in year 4 of Ramesses II the son of Seti I.  He was preparing to complete the reconquest of Syro-Palestine that both his father and grandfather had started.  He was also preparing to take on the Hittite Kingdom that was beginning to return to its historical interest in the same area (MacQueen: 1999: 48).  Of course, Ramesses II was hyping up his army in preparation for the real war he did launch in his year 4 {(Kitchen 1982: 240).  I like to use his chronology of Ramesses II long life.}

If we accept, that the United Monarchy, ruled during the so-called weakness of the later years of the 18th dynasty.  We solve many of the questionable problems archaeologists of the era cannot answer.  Such as, why the former General Horemheb a nobody Pharaoh, did not take control of the Syro-Palestine area, after the nobody Pharaoh Ay?  He would have had to go up against the Solomonic Empire built upon the army of David, and bound by a marriage of daughter of Pharaoh.  This means that Solomon according to understood historical royal inheritance laws of Egypt (Robins 1993: 26).  Solomon had the right to claim kingship from the Delta to the Euphrates River upon the death of Pharaoh Tutankhamun, the last of the Thutmosid Pharaohs that built the Egyptian Empire from the Delta (driving the Hyksos out) to the Euphrates River.  Egypt’s only period in history that the Empire stretched so, by the way (ed. Shaw 2000: 218-313).

The capital of the Hyksos, Avaris finds its beginnings in the First Intermediate Period (Grimal 1992: 139-140).  Humble at first it kept growing as more Canaanites fled the collapse of Canaan under the Hebrews reasserting themselves in the ‘land of milk and honey’ after their escape from Egypt, bringing down the Old Kingdom.  The Minoan influences of Avaris and other sites in Israel can be defined, again the reasserting of the Hebrews in the promised land affecting the  Philistines who can be dated in Asia Minor from the 4th millennium on (Forsyth 1999: 14).

My hope sir, you and yours have a nice day.  As to all.




Forsyth, Phyllis Young.  (1997).  Thera in the Bronze Age.  (Second paperback printing).  P.  Lang.

Grimal, Nicolas.  (1992).   A History of Ancient Egypt. (English edition).  (Ian Shaw, trans.)  Blackwell.

Kitchen, K.A.  (1982).   Pharaoh Triumphant the Life and Times of Ramesses II.             
            Aris& Phillips.

Macqueen, J.G.  (1999).   The Hittites and their Contemporaries in Asia Minor, Revised and Enlarged Edition.  ( 2nd paperback printing).  Thames and Hudson.

Shaw, Ian.  (Ed.). (2000). The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt.  Oxford.






An original piece by Pjbl2223@aol.  Based on the copyrighted The Archaeological Chronology of the Bible Lands 2000-2008.  All rights reserved.

[turanclancath]

   Scientists Use Tree?Rings to?Date 3,000-Year-Old Volcanic Eruption | The Cornell Daily Sun

Acording to Dendrochronolgy research ( the last 10 years ) a date for the Thera/Santorini eruption between 1661 and `1613 is widely accepted.

1624 is mostly used.

In full Hyksos period !!!!.
good sie about Hyksos and 400 year stele  see

:



Egyptian History: Dynasties 12 to 17 - The Middle Kingdom and the rule of the Hyksos


The mural paintings of Thera are beautiful and famous.


the marine fresco,s and about Atlantis etc

Akrotiri Marine Festival Fresco

There are a lot of theories Plato was inspired  in his Atlantis fantasy !!!( its a political propaganda peace  like his ideyal State ) by
perhaps an oral tradition about the Thera eruption???
who knows ?

Concerning Akhesahmun.
Very very interesting
A pity that the suns of Supilulumas couldnt  mary here,
she must habve been a clever politician in proposing the Hittite/ Egyptian marriage alliance.
Instead she was forced to mary this old intrigant Ayi.

turanclancath:)

[kattey]

Clarification, please.

Is the name Seth of Egyptian origin?  Being that the name Seth is also a name of one of Adam and Eve's children, which Seth came first?

This is more acknowledgment of how closely the ancient cultures were to each other.  I believe the word hell comes from the Egyptians, no?

[turanclancath]

Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good late evening ? Katthey.
The word Hell comes from the early German Languages.

the goddes hel from the  goddesses knowledge cards see picture here




I can recommend Wilipedia  for fast quick first information on a lot of topics.

turanclancath

[Sekhmet]

Hell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Good late evening ? Katthey.
The word Hell comes from the early German Languages.

the goddes hel from the  goddesses knowledge cards see picture here




I can recommend Wilipedia  for fast quick first information on a lot of topics.

turanclancath

Very nice site sire Turanclancath.

[Sekhmet]

Clarification, please.

Is the name Seth of Egyptian origin?  Being that the name Seth is also a name of one of Adam and Eve's children, which Seth came first?

This is more acknowledgment of how closely the ancient cultures were to each other.  I believe the word hell comes from the Egyptians, no?

Regarding the name of Seth, I cannot find any information as to them being related.  Logic tells me they are not.  Seth in Egyptian history dates way back into the demi-god period prior to written history.  He is not the by any shake of the tail a nice god.  According to Egyptian mythology he was the great-grandson of Ra; the younger son, he murdered his older, and rightful heir to the throne of Egypt, Osiris.  Even his own sister/wife Nephthys preferred their older brother.  I noted in an earlier post that Seth was by Egyptian mythology the god of the desert, he was also he god of storms.  I did not include the only aspect of him that might be considered good- this being his position in the boat of Ra as it passed through the night.  He stood at the prow, armed against the great enemy of Ra, Apophis the greatest of the chaos serpents.

Seth in Hebrew history is the third son of Adam and Eve.  Able and Cain the first two Cain slew Able, Seth was born while Cain had to leave the family's area to marry a daughter of Nod.  Noah came from the line of Seth.  So, I cannot find much to suggest that there was much overlap between the god Seth and the man Seth other than their name.

I would be happy if anyone could shed more light on this topic.  To all I hope you the best.  Again Kattey you stretch my mind   thank you!  Have a great day.

[Brianroy]

[p131] THE EGYPTIANS

How [the history of] the Ethiopians is included in the chronology of the Egyptians, and [the times when] the Ptolemaei ruled over Egypt and Alexandria.
How the Egyptians have kept records of their dates.
After the chronology of the Chaldaeans, the Assyrians and the Hebrews, it it time to move on to the records of the Egyptians.
Diodorus, in the first book of his historical library [ 1.44 ], writes as follows: "Some of them tell the story that the first rulers in Egypt were gods and heroes, who ruled for slightly less than 16,000 years;

[note the very obvious hyperbole and myth-making aspect of the account]

the last of the gods who ruled there was Horus the son of Isis. Then men became kings of the country, in the time of Myris, and have continued for slightly less than 5,000, until the 180th Olympiad [60-57 B.C.], when I [Diodorus] visited Egypt, in the reign of Ptolemaeus, who was called the New Dionysus.

[p133] "For the great majority of that time, the country has been ruled by native kings; but for short periods it was ruled by Ethiopians, by Persians and by Macedonians.

There were only four Ethiopian kings, and they did not rule in a single sequence, but at separate times; in total, they ruled for slightly less than 36 years.

During the supremacy of the Persians, which was established when Cambyses conquered the [Egyptian] people by force, and which lasted for 135 years, the Egyptians rose in revolt, because they could not endure the harsh government and the impiety [of the Persians] towards the native gods.

 Then the Macedonians and their descendants became kings, for 276 years. For the whole of the rest of the time, [Egypt] was governed by native rulers, who consisted of 470 kings and 5 queens.

"Records about all of these rulers have been kept by the priests in their sacred books, which have been continuously handed down from one [generation] to another, since the most ancient times. These books tell about the character of each king, their virtue and their bravery, their spirit and their nobility, as well as the achievements of each of them in their reigns. However it is unnecessary, and moreover worthless, for us to write down the deeds of each of them; especially since many of them were judged to be insignificant even in their own times." That is what Diodorus says.

And now it is right and fitting for us to add to this Manetho's account of the Egyptians, which seems to be a reliable history.

From the Egyptian records of Manetho, who composed in 3 books commentaries about the gods, demi-gods, spirits, and the mortal kings who ruled over the Egyptians, up until the time of Dareius the king of the Persians.
 
The first man amongst the Egyptians was Hephaestus, who discovered fire for them; he was the father of Sol [the Sun]. After him came [(?)Agathodaemon; then] Cronus; then Osiris; then Typhon the brother of Osiris; and then Horus the son of Osiris and Isis. These were the first rulers of the Egyptians. [p135]

After them, one king succeeded another until the time of Bidis, for a total of 13,900 years - calculated by lunar years, which lasted for 30 days. That is the period which we now call a month, but the men of that time called it a year.

{1158.3 years at 360 days to a year = 1141.65 years.  The calculation, then, is hyperbole years being 30 day months. Divide the sum total  by 12 months and then divide into a 365.25 rounded up to nearest hundredth year, multiplying at .9856.  This gives a quick approximation as the historical intent of the testimony.}


 After the gods, a race of demi-gods ruled for 1,255 years. {de facto, 1255 months at 103 years}

After them, other kings ruled [the country] for 1,817 years.
{149.23 years as adjusted toformula given}

 After them, 30 kings from Memphis [ruled] for 1,790 years;  
{147 years}

and then another ten kings from Thinis ruled for 350 years. {28.74 years}

And then the shades and demi-gods were kings, for 5,813 years.
{477.44 years}

The total for all of these is 11,000 years - which are lunar years, or months.

The total time, which the Egyptians assign to the gods and demi-gods and spirits is 24,900 lunar years - which is the equivalent of 2,206 solar years.

{Cleopatra to the first Egyptian leader is then at max-out chronology in the historical testimony, only from 30 B.C. extending back to 2236 B.C. }.

Hence, there is clear testimony according to the ancients, that for modern Egyptologists and others to date Egypt older than the Flood of Noah or into any period pre-2300 B.C.,  is INACCURATE.

[Brianroy]

Over 100 years ago, an extensive write up on the historical documents of Egypt showed that at the Karnak Inscription, there is a reference to the name of Rome as being present in Egypt in the 1300s B.C. 

ANCIENT RECORDS OF EGYPT

Historical Documents
EDITED BY JAMES HENRY. BREASTED

VOLUME 3
The NINETEENTH DYNASTY
CHICAGO: THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PRESS
May  1906
p.266


 In that case, ROME was the name of a high priest of an idol deity. 

As I have demonstrated earlier, there was a direct relationship with Isis and Greece, in which Isis was actually the Greek girl  named Ceres, who became queen of Egypt, and then called IO by the Greeks.  IO, which is a mathematical formula (the basis of the formation of later Greek letters of its alphabet) and a statement...beginning here, eternity begins. Or, more literarily: "As a civilized society, time begins for us here...", or something to this effect.

In taking in all this, we see that the same Ceres who is Isis in Egypt, and called IO in Greece...also is known as Demeter in ROME.  The descendants of Greece and Sicily had pre-10th century B.C. patri-lineal ties to the Delta regions of Egypt. 

 As Europe thawed from the Ice Age, and the glacial regions of Italy -- and later  France and then Germany --receded and gave way to vegetation, new areas  (that were previously uninhabitable)  opened up. 

If ROME was so named as it was, in the 700s B.C., after an Egyptian high priest listed at the Karnak Inscription...and Isis was to be worshipped as Demeter, she who sustains with food and wine and goods...we might wish to look at the connection of trade in which Italy was founded as a Greek colony under Egyptian influence.   

Perhaps Mars, the father of Romulus, was half Greek and half Egyptian royal or that of an Egyptian high priest family? Perhaps.  But, if not, could Mars have married her who was a beloved sister or daughter of such a one? Perhaps.  The more likely hypothetical...Mars was a hired military leader leading a trapping and trading outpost in behalfof Egypt,in an area rich with new life, following the glacial recessions upthe boot of Italy.  A reasonable historical presentation for this latter possibility.

The very name of ROME may be meaning that Egypt's trade in the Mediterranean, especially in the low 800s and 700 B.C.,  and in the centuries going back to Osiris and Isis,  was more extensive than what is usually discussed.   

The idols that pass in Isaiah's day in the mid-700s B.C. from Rome to Babylon via Israeli ports and Israeli trade route passage, is not by accident.   If there were pirates or local interests along the coastal regions of the north and northeast Mediterranean resisting Egypt at that time, the Egyptian merchant vessels must have been escorted by naval military war vessels of some kind.   

Egyptian  dominance in the Eastern Mediterranean, at least  in the time of Isaiah,  would likely have been thus limited  to the sea lanes well south of Cyprus and Crete.

In Isaiah and post Isaiah prophets, if there is a speaking of Egyptian influence, it may extend out further than was previously supposed. 

Even as recent tests in Europe have shown 5-6 knots as the perfect  ramming speed in later vessel warfare, we are consistently finding that we are once again changing the perceptions and requirements we modernly place upon the ancients...often worked up by getting away into Orwellian rewrites, as "experts" digress from literary sources and focus on the commentaries on commentaries, perhaps nearer or further based -- in turn --  on the commentary of the translation or historical literary sources.  That is, we need to get back to source material whenever possible, so we are less prone to the modern reinterpretation made ignorantly by finger wetting conclusions. 

Modern Egyptology bases its chronology on Manetho and Eusebius...and it screws it all up. 

 The First Dynasty gives way to the Third Dynasty...the Second Dynasty is apart from the First and Third, but the actual simultaneous year, no one has thus far delivered.  Manetho has divided the Dynasties in such a pattern as that in which we are to follow the cities until the coming of the Hyksos, and thereafter we see regularity in joining the Delta with Memphis and Thebes.  That redating process only puts us into Egypt with its first family in the 2200s B.C., with few dozens to a few hundreds at the first.  Even Diodorus' and Polyhistor's contributions from antiquity have shown this to Middle Bronze Age origin of what we call "Ancient Egypt" (and no older than MBA) be the case.

So how much of Assyria and Syria do we date based on what was perceived in dating through modern archaelogical processing foundations in Egyptology?  Quite a bit.

As I have also shown in regard to the Hebrew 215 year sojourn, with good fertility, great numbers in earliest Egypt can be achieved in a short number of years to produce a great labor force.   The Rome / Egypt relationship in the 770s to the 740s B.C. is proving to be quite interesting...and may be as simple as the township (and later city of) ROME being a colonial outpost for trapping and trade that came into its own rather quickly.

There is much of the trade and inter-relationship of the ancient world we still don't know.  It seems that  most historians and scholars of the relevant fields are afraid to openly talk about and compare to the pre-industrial colonial theaters dating back to the Fall of Rome or human patterns of comparative behavior that may or may not apply to aid our understanding of the more ancient past that preceded them some 2000 or more years prior, and why. 

If nothing else...it may spark some very interesting conversation that may lead to a deeper understanding and pragmatic appreciation of the periods discussed. 

Peace.



   

[Brianroy]

Black resin in the tomb of Egypt's kings point to a characteristic of the 18th dynasty, while stone jars can be generally read as if over a half millenia ending about 1000 B.C.

KV 63: A Look at the New Tomb

However, they do not isolate to actual chronological centuries, and are dependant on historical literary perspectives for assistance.   

[Sekhmet]

Black resin in the tomb of Egypt's kings point to a characteristic of the 18th dynasty, while stone jars can be generally read as if over a half millenia ending about 1000 B.C.

KV 63: A Look at the New Tomb

However, they do not isolate to actual chronological centuries, and are dependant on historical literary perspectives for assistance.   

Mr. Roy I regret that I do not understand your statements regarding first the black resin, then the stone jars?  Here is why.

First: the covering of the mummy coffin, and often other grave goods with black resin dates to the “First Intermediate Period with the rise of the Osirisian cult of resurrection upon death” ( David 1998: 28, 103).  The First Intermediate Period dates to 2160-2055 BCE.  The 18th Dynasty dates to 1550-1295. 

I quote “ …The colour black also stands for life and regeneration in the beyond, but it is primarily associated with the god of the dead Osiris”.  The International Review of Ancient art and Archaeology Minerva Volume 15, Number 3 May/June 2005 by Andre Wiese Tutankhamun – The Golden Beyond Tomb Treasures from the Valley of the Kings

Second:  I quote “During the Naqada II phase, there was considerable development in techniques of stoneworking: various limestones, alabasters, marbles, serpentine, basalt, breccia, gneiss, diorite, and gabbro were being discovered and exploited all along the Nile Valley as well as in the desert, particularly at Wadi Hammat.  The increasing skills in the carving of stone vessels prepared the way for the great achievements of pharaonic stone architecture.” (Shaw (ed) 2000: 54)  The Naqada II phase of Egyptian history dates to 3,500-3,200 BCE.

The 40,000 items of stone jars and vessels found underneath the 3rd Dynasty pyramid of Zoser were crafted in previous eras, and were collected and stored by Zoser underneath his pyramid. (Rediscover Ancient Egypt - FAQs about pyramids, Tutankhamen, mummies, pharaohs, etc. )  Zoser AKA Djoser dates to 2686-2666 BCE.

I read through the link and could not find your statements.  It is an extremely interesting link and site.  IMHO in the end it will be decided that KV tomb 63 is the Ka (spirit) tomb of the highborn Egyptian lady sent as wife to the King of Ugarit.  Likely, the daughter of Ay since it is so close to his non-royal tomb that received the remains of Tutankhamun. 

If you could find the time to explain more fully what you meant by your post, I would appreciate it greatly, sir.

Sources:
David, Rosalie.  (1998).  Handbook to Life in Ancient Egypt.  Oxford.

Shaw, Ian.  (Ed.). (2000).  The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt.  Oxford.

Dates are from The Oxford History of Ancient Egypt pages 479-481. Silent Images Women in Pharaonic Egypt by Dr. Zahi Hawass page 202.

[Brianroy]

To Sekhmet, aka. Patricia:

  In light of the hostile ( be they phony or real) legal threats by Jennie, and your past words and conduct, where as soon as you are shot down in your fallacious conclusions, where you repeatedly resort to call me derogatory names and characterizations: do not attempt to have any further correspondance with me. 

  You and Jennie  can go  to some other thread and cry " "I'm calling the Department of Justice on you because you hurt my feelings when you disprove my incorrect chronology and what ever else!"  ordure. 

 YOU Patricia aka. Sekhmet, and YOU Jennie:   are to immediately, as of this  last reply of Sekhmet dated on 10/18/08 3:27 pm Pacific, are to cease and desist all communication to me...TRIPLE EXCLAMATION.

Stop  coming to my threads (those which I started) immediately.

 You and Jennie are put on public notice to stop stalking and harassing ME.

Both of you...Stay off my threads.

You want to play falacious "harassment" accusations as a game?  You already lost.