Moses, Exodus and Dr. Velikovsky

[Sekhmet]

 What I learned from Dr. Immanuel Velikovsky way back in seventh grade was that history did not have to be ‘as it is written’.  Particularly in the world of the Bible, 2 years before, I just about got kicked out of the family church (military non-domination) because I wanted to know which pharaoh freed Joseph.  It was during the days of the Selma Marches, Dr. King speaking of freedom and knowing my dad was willing to lay down his life for our nation.  Not to mention police dogs yapping at my fellow Americans because they were a different color.

Dr. Immanuel Velikovsky turned on light bulbs as no one else did.  But really planets playing space balls with each other?  Not until Shoemaker-Levy 9 did, I even consider that as a viable possibility.  I still find the greatest aspect of Dr. Velikovsky’s for me was his ability to encourage a child.  That was unless in stone history might not be as it appeared and not to believe with thinking the work in stone.

Egypt’s governmental seat Memphis has been Memphis since the First Dynasty.  So trying to convince people that the 18th Dynasty royals and nobility lived anywhere else is something of a waste.  Actually from the earliest dynasties Pharaoh traveled by boat to city to city with members of his family.

However, what I am really trying to say in this is to stop the 18th dynasty connection to the Exodus.  I hope that the following books will help.  At least they will show I do know something about the 18th Dynasty.


Beckman, Gary.  (1999). Hittite Diplomatic Texts.  (Second Printing).  Scholars.

Cline, Eric H. and O’Connor, David.  (Eds.).  (2006).  Thutmose III A New Biography. Michigan.

Cohen, Raymond and Westbrook, Raymond.  (Eds.).  (2000). Amarna Diplomacy the Beginnings of International Relations.  John Hopkins.

Giles, Frederick, J. (2002). The Amarna Age: Western Asia.  (With a Chapter by J. Basil Hennessey).  (A.V.Knap some trans).  Aris and Pillips.

Lawler, Andrew.  (October 2007). Smithsonian Magazine. Unearthing Egypt’s Greatest Temple.   http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/egyptiantemple-200711.html

Wiese, Andre.  (May/June 2004) The International Review of Ancient Art and Archaeology Minerva.  Tutankhamun-The Golden Beyond Tomb Treasures From the Valley of the Kings. Volume 15.   Number 3.

Moran, William L.  (Ed. and Trans).  (1990). The Amarna Letters. (English Language Edition).  Johns Hopkins.

Redford, Donald B. (2003). The Wars in Syria and Palestine of Thutmose III. Brill.

Now if any of you after reading the above and still find the Exodus as described in scripture.  You may stand a chance one day of proving Dr. Velikovsky right. 

[Admin1]

You make some good points.  It is sometimes difficult to discern what writings should be taken literal, what is tradition, what is "myth", etc...

But that is the joy of what we call "Biblical archaeology":  What is found in the ground can not lie.

[Sekhmet]

You make some good points.  It is sometimes difficult to discern what writings should be taken literal, what is tradition, what is "myth", etc...

But that is the joy of what we call "Biblical archaeology":  What is found in the ground can not lie.

Thank you Admin1 for your comment.  Biblical archaeology does not lie, however great amounts of it get misread.  I am not sure why this is.  Josephus was so great, and science has advanced so much since Archbishop Ussher penned his End Time date of October 1996.  Yet, Biblical scholars today stilll want to maintain a chronology a grandmother can debunk. 

Is it due to theology?  Religion as a hole?  Or funding?  And all myths I believe started from some kind of miracles.  For that is my God and he does not lie.

Again thank you.

[turanclancath]

Think my posting can be also placed here

#95 on: Today at 08:05 AM »   

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http://www.badarchaeology.net/confused/rohl.php

Found this interesting site.
If Rohl is right or wrong isnt the reason  i post this link.!!!

But that his new chronology isnt so new  , he is building with adaptations 
on Velikovsky.
Therefore the title of this  link article Rohls not so new chronology.

And as Lady Sekhmet mentioned the works of Velikovsky as ey opener
its interesting to see Rohl builds on the pionier  Velikovsky.
Of course he weeds out the untenable things of his predesessor  but keeps the Idy that the Egyptian chronology has gaps etc.

So Rohl isnt the first  with his New Chronology.And builds on Velikovsky, who as an pioneer got the odium, and Rohl as an adapter got the laurels, what an irony.

Afrer all ,the 12 century philosopher Thierry of chartres wrote   about scientific progress
we are dwarfs standing on the shoulders opf giants

And we have a whole Forrest of  different Deviant New Chronologys.!!!

Seems everybody has his own particular Chronology.
Maybe  ( a word abhorred in university science ) I start by own  new chronology
called the Maybe New Chronology !!!
Spendid idy i think lol lol.


Hatshepsut was the stepmother of Moses  maybe ?
or her architect/lover Senenmut, who diasappeared was Moses  just to give some spicy maybe,s )
with the low chronology ( tradiotional) an Exodus date of 1447 is possible then.
I,m not the first with this hypothesis  but just for fun and exersise i will work it out.
like the classical Sophists  had to prove first for instance the moon was square and then the moon was round etc etc

By the way I bought The Lords Of Avaris of David Rohl.!!!

Highly interesting, stimulating, richly illustrated and amusing !!!
A recommendation really:)

Turanclancath , Lord of Maybe   

By the way did you notice he ( or the editor ) put the beautifull Poseidon/Zeus  Cape Sounion statue at the front cover of the book.
 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 08:33 AM by turanclancath »  Report to moderator    80.126.7.138 

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Turanclancath/aka Don Turan

Let the 4 Queens rule 

[Sekhmet]

Think my posting can be also placed here

#95 on: Today at 08:05 AM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.badarchaeology.net/confused/rohl.php

Found this interesting site.
If Rohl is right or wrong isnt the reason  i post this link.!!!

But that his new chronology isnt so new  , he is building with adaptations 
on Velikovsky.
Therefore the title of this  link article Rohls not so new chronology.

And as Lady Sekhmet mentioned the works of Velikovsky as ey opener
its interesting to see Rohl builds on the pionier  Velikovsky.
Of course he weeds out the untenable things of his predesessor  but keeps the Idy that the Egyptian chronology has gaps etc.

So Rohl isnt the first  with his New Chronology.And builds on Velikovsky, who as an pioneer got the odium, and Rohl as an adapter got the laurels, what an irony.

Afrer all ,the 12 century philosopher Thierry of chartres wrote   about scientific progress
we are dwarfs standing on the shoulders opf giants

And we have a whole Forrest of  different Deviant New Chronologys.!!!

Seems everybody has his own particular Chronology.
Maybe  ( a word abhorred in university science ) I start by own  new chronology
called the Maybe New Chronology !!!
Spendid idy i think lol lol.


Hatshepsut was the stepmother of Moses  maybe ?
or her architect/lover Senenmut, who diasappeared was Moses  just to give some spicy maybe,s )
with the low chronology ( tradiotional) an Exodus date of 1447 is possible then.
I,m not the first with this hypothesis  but just for fun and exersise i will work it out.
like the classical Sophists  had to prove first for instance the moon was square and then the moon was round etc etc

By the way I bought The Lords Of Avaris of David Rohl.!!!

Highly interesting, stimulating, richly illustrated and amusing !!!
A recommendation really:)

Turanclancath , Lord of Maybe   

By the way did you notice he ( or the editor ) put the beautifull Poseidon/Zeus  Cape Sounion statue at the front cover of the book.
 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 08:33 AM by turanclancath »  Report to moderator    80.126.7.138 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Turanclancath/aka Don Turan

Let the 4 Queens rule

Sure you can dear friend.   You tend to keep your temper and offer only smart stuff.    Good day to ya.

[JohnStevenson]

Bible scholars tend to be divided as to when the Exodus took place, some placing it into the 18th Dynasty and others in the 19th Dynasty.  Part of the issue is that there is a slight but significant variation in the Hebrew Massoretic text of the Old Testament versus its Greek counterpart in the Septuagint.  And yes, there are others who try to completely rewrite both Egyptian and Bible chronology, but I am not even going to address such fringe conspiracy theorists (and yes, I place Mr. Velikovsky in this catagory).

In spite of the admitted difficulties, I still tend to favor the mid-18th dynasty view, though I would add that it would have to be after the reign of Thutmoses III.

[Sekhmet]

Bible scholars tend to be divided as to when the Exodus took place, some placing it into the 18th Dynasty and others in the 19th Dynasty.  Part of the issue is that there is a slight but significant variation in the Hebrew Massoretic text of the Old Testament versus its Greek counterpart in the Septuagint.  And yes, there are others who try to completely rewrite both Egyptian and Bible chronology, but I am not even going to address such fringe conspiracy theorists (and yes, I place Mr. Velikovsky in this catagory).

In spite of the admitted difficulties, I still tend to favor the mid-18th dynasty view, though I would add that it would have to be after the reign of Thutmoses III.

Hello again Dr. John Stevenson

So very nice to see you again you are so right on the division of placement of Exodus.  It makes me wonder if religious scholars read up on the history of the ancient land of Egypt.  Alternatively, do they wear blinders and focus only on Israel?  I just cannot fathom the insistence of placing Exodus into the 18th Dynasty.  It was the richest and most powerful dynasty in Egypt’s long history.  Any middling Egyptianphil can tell you.

At least Dr. John Stevenson, you are better off by claiming it happened after Tuthmose III, thank you.  That leaves the following Pharaohs.
Amenophis II- his claim to fame was his own military strength where he defeats some Asians and sailed down the Nile to Nubia with the bodies of those Asians hanging from his royal barge.
Tuthmose IV his claim to fame was his marriage for peace with Mittani.
Amenophis III, the Glorious Sun King of Egypt the richest of the richest of all.  Where the King of Babylon tells us at that time the gold of Egypt is like sand.  To please send him some.
Akhenaten, ah yes the other favored Pharaoh for the Exodus.  He was just to busy building his capitol city and forcing his religious revolution.  That actually started under Tuthmose III.
Tutankhamun, his claim to fame is the riches of his burial tomb.  This alone violates the order of God to break open the tombs.  We know that many of the royal 17th, and 18th tombs were intact until Ramesses IX about 1126 BCE and Pharaoh Siamun actually reburied them into the caches they were found in during the 19th century A.D.
Ay, he was busy trying to sooth the Hittite King Suppiluliumas I anger over the death/murder of the King’s son sent to marry Tut’s widow.
Horemheb really nothing is known of his reign except he claims continued the rebuilding of army and restoring law and order.  While his successor was learning the job of Pharaoh and acting head of the army and took control of the Sinai before he died as Pharaoh.  Then we have Ramesses II pretty much discredited as the Pharaoh of Exodus.
Then comes Mernenptah and he claims that the “The Princes call peace,... and includes Israel in with those Princes.”

When did Israel have princess?  They started during the United Kingdom period, until Israel ceased to exist.  Oh, yes that glyph used to describe Israel as wandering, people without city-state.  Please read 2nd Chron. 10:16 and see that even after the Great Kings Israel maintained their tent living.

The only place in Egyptian history that fits Biblical description of utter and complete destruction is at the end of the Old Kingdom.  The destruction sir, was so horrible that the traditional religion changes from Pharaoh being their hope of salvation after death.  To Osiris a god being their hope.  What kind of destruction would cause a whole people to give up their religion and place their hope on a god?  Exodus, where the power of God is shown with mercy only towards his own people.

Lord Weni a high ranking Egyptian of the 6th Dynasty often accused of hyperbolling his testimony of his life makes clear the oppression.  I don’t believe these people that had all the hope in gods, not modern wonders, lied about their lives as so many others do.

Might I suggest you read Amarna Diplomacy The Beginnings of International Relations Edited by Raymond Cohen and Raymond Westbrook.  There is also Hittite Diplomatic Texts by Gary Beckman.  This one covers Royal texts from the 18th and 19th dynasties of Egypt.  Finally, Writings from the Ancient World-Text from the Pyramid Age by Nigel C. Strudwick page 229 lines 5 and 6 from the top.  Don’t listen to todays experts listen to those that still speak from their own writings.

If the Bible is proved a reliable record of the Jewish people, does that mean God is real?  I do not believe it would.  It is faith, belief in God that makes him real.  Abraham didn’t have a Bible still he believed.

Again, it is so nice to see you here again.  Dr. John Stevenson.

Please don't let an ancient chronology keep you from the truth.

[JohnStevenson]

I just cannot fathom the insistence of placing Exodus into the 18th Dynasty.  It was the richest and most powerful dynasty in Egypt’s long history.

Very true.  And the 19th Dynasty would have been a close runner up, yet we know that they were not without their setbacks.  It is interesting to compare the official Egyptian account of the Battle of Kadesh fought by Rameses II with the Hittite version of the same battle.  Rameses would have us believe that he was ambushed yet single handedly turned defeat into an overwhelming victory.  Strangely, he never followed up that victory but instead returned to Egypt and never again set foot outside his country.  It is only when we read the Hittite account of the incident that Rameses reclusive behavior makes sense.  It is there we learn that Rameses lost a major portion of his army and barely managed to escape with his own skin intact and that only because the Hittites stopped to loot everything the Egyptians left behind in their retreat.

This sort of selective reporting has a modern counterpart when the United States forces were entering Baghdad.  The Iraqi minister of propaganda was speaking to the news cameras and telling how all the Americans had died in the desert when the American tanks came rolling down the street.

The truth is that, to the best of my knowledge, the Egyptians NEVER reported their own military defeats.  If you can show me a single instance where this is not the case, I will be glad to modify my statement.

Amenophis II- his claim to fame was his own military strength where he defeats some Asians and sailed down the Nile to Nubia with the bodies of those Asians hanging from his royal barge.

All of which took place in the first nine years of his reign.  After that there was nothing.  It is my understanding that he never again set foot out of Egypt in his later years.

[Sekhmet]

All of which took place in the first nine years of his reign.  After that there was nothing.  It is my understanding that he never again set foot out of Egypt in his later years.

I am sorry I don't understand what you mean by "After that there was nothing."  Could you please be so kind as to explain that a different way so I might understand it.  I would appreciate it greatly.

As the other I will work on that.  Would you accept the admission of Pepy II of 2 Expedition Leaders (Stand ins for Pharaoh literally).  One is slain in Nubia and his son had to ramson his corpse, and the other is slain at the Red Sea by Asiatics.  Source Dr. Donald Redford, Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times bottom of pg. 57.

[Sekhmet]

Quoted from Dr. John Stevenson Septemeber 18th at 02:55 PM
  It is interesting to compare the official Egyptian account of the Battle of Kadesh fought by Rameses II with the Hittite version of the same battle.  Rameses would have us believe that he was ambushed yet single handedly turned defeat into an overwhelming victory.  Strangely, he never followed up that victory but instead returned to Egypt and never again set foot outside his country. 

The Tet Offensive is much the same way I heard the VC was just shocked that we didn't follow up.  The Battle of the Bulge, it is amazing what a few men can do with belief in their leaders/and God.  When I read Ramesses II version I always think of Alvin C. York of WWI.  For those of you that are not aquatinted with him let me share.

Alvin C. York (December 13, 1887 – September 2, 1964)
Quoted from website below.
  http://www.worldwar1.com/heritage/sgtayork.htm
"A brief fire fight ensued which resulted in the confusion and the unexpected surrender of a superior German force to the seventeen soldiers. Once the Germans realized that the American contingent was limited, machine gunners on the hill overlooking the scene turned the gun away from the front and toward their own troops. After ordering the German soldiers to lie down, the machine gun opened fire resulting in the deaths of nine Americans, including York's best friend in the outfit, Murray Savage. Sergeant Early received seventeen bullet wounds and turned the command over to corporals Harry Parsons and William Cutting, who ordered York to silence the machine gun. York was successful and when all was said and done, nine men had captured 132 prisoners.
That York deserves credit for his heroism is without question. Unfortunately, however, his exploit has been blown out of proportion with some accounts claiming that he silenced thirty-five machine guns and captured 132 prisoners single-handedly. York never claimed that he acted alone, nor was he proud of what he did. Twenty-five Germans lay dead, and by his accounting, York was responsible for at least nine of the deaths. Only two of the seven survivors were acknowledged for their participation in the event; Sergeant Early and Corporal Cutting were finally awarded the Distinguished Service Cross in 1927."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_C._York
 "And those machine guns were spitting fire and cutting down the undergrowth all around me something awful. And the Germans were yelling orders. You never heard such a racket in all of your life. I didn't have time to dodge behind a tree or dive into the brush… As soon as the machine guns opened fire on me, I began to exchange shots with them. There were over thirty of them in continuous action, and all I could do was touch the Germans off just as fast as I could. I was sharp shooting… All the time I kept yelling at them to come down. I didn't want to kill any more than I had to. But it was they or I. And I was giving them the best I had." Quote from Sergeant Alvin York from above website.

I am also reminded of Naval Captains John Paul Jones, Lord Nelson.  Sometimes one man as hard as it seems can do, cause wonders to happen.  My God is said to be the same today, as yesterday.  If this is true then I believe Ramesses II.
 
I am sorry but since the days of Tuthmose III, Egypt had been slowly been letting that area drift away as long as it sent the tribute.  It was a costly event warring so far away.  When a threat or occasional terrorist visit Amenophis II attack worked just as well.  Seti I, was the first Pharaoh since Tuthmose III to go that far north against the Hittite.  His son with an army large enough to take on Muwatallis on Hittite controlled land found out how expensive it was.  (Another reason to stop by Jerusalem yr 7/8)

 I don't know where you get that Amenophis II, and Ramesses II just return home never to leave it again.  Both had settled what they perceived as problem areas.  Why go back if not needed.  While Ramesses II continued warring for several years in Canaan, and Palestine.     

I simply do not understand the reasoning so please forgive me for asking. Should we go back and invade Grenada because it will prove to future historians we just didn't cut and run?  Or some other place perhaps?

Quoted from Dr. John Stevenson Septemeber 18th at 02:55 PM

It is only when we read the Hittite account of the incident that Rameses reclusive behavior makes sense.  It is there we learn that Rameses lost a major portion of his army and barely managed to escape with his own skin intact and that only because the Hittites stopped to loot everything the Egyptians left behind in their retreat.

I regret to report but from my many sources I cannot find the above description of the after battle.  The battle resumed the next day, and it was Muwatallis that offered the peace treaty.  Ramesses II foolishly refused to sign but did agree to call off further battle at this time.  Both sides lost men, but the looting was done by the Egyptians after the Hittite forces the day before had been forced to swim across the river to save them from Ramesses, and his late arriving forces. 
Suggested source Pharaoh Triumphant The Life and Times of of Ramesses II by K.A. Kitchen pages 59-62

Quoted from Dr. John Stevenson Septemeber 18th at 02:55 PM
The truth is that, to the best of my knowledge, the Egyptians NEVER reported their own military defeats.  If you can show me a single instance where this is not the case, I will be glad to modify my statement.

Sekhmet says later gator.  Pharaoh Kamose offers the closet thing I have found so far, but I doubt you will accept it. 

Again wonderful brain excerises thank you Dr. Stevenson again.  Have a wonderful weekend.

[Sekhmet]

Again, have a nice day