Moses and the Exodus

[Sekhmet]

Regarding this Moses and The Exodus

If you have not read the below posts, may I humbly suggest you do as doing so will allow you to better see the straight line that archaeology can now produce in the era of the Patriarchs.  Something no generally accepted chronology does.

Pagan influences in Christian Chronology Pagan Influences in Christian Chronology

Abraham found here. Abraham

Joseph/Imhotep belongs in 3rd Dynasty Joseph/Imhotep

I maintain that archaeology of the last 30 years has uncovered new information that allows even a grandmother such as me to realign Biblical History into a coherent line.  That flows with the history of neighboring states, as history should.  The major topic of this post will be Moses and the time that archaeology best places him.

The Bible tells us that the house of Israel lives and prospers in Egypt for years after the death of Joseph (Exodus 1:7).  Until a new Pharaoh comes along that did not know Joseph (Exodus 1: Eight).  This would be Pharaoh Unas, he succeeded (ca. 2371 BCE) the old line that descended from the 4th dynasty Pharaohs whose founder claimed to have known Imhotep.

In ca. 2334-2265 Sargon the Great establishes the first Semitic Empire in Mesopotamia, according to the story.  His mother abandons him in a reed basket, in the river and is saved by the will of the Gods.  (Stiebing 2003: 65-71).

In ca. 2282 Pharaoh Teti the first Pharaoh of the 6th dynasty succeeds Pharaoh Unas.  This is during the increasing power, of a Semitic Empire in Mesopotamia.  We find two Pharaohs with poor claims to the throne of Egypt.  If, the House of Israel is present in Egypt at this time we can understand these Pharaohs having fear of the Semitic house of Israel (Exodus 1:9-10).  We find as well; his own guards (Kanawati 2003: 183-184) may, have assassinated Pharaoh Teti.  Enslaving an entrenched and well known and by this time an important Semitic people could lead to a disruption in society leading to this assassination.  The Bible recounts that the Pharaoh that first enslaved the House of Israel also was interested in childbirth (Exodus 1:15-22).  Archaeology now shows us that Pharaoh Teti and his eldest son Pepy I become unlike other Pharaohs great supporters of Hathor in her role of fertility (Lesko 1999: 93).

I see already a good comparison between Exodus and archaeology it encourages me to continue.

Teti and Pepy I both build their Ka Temples in the ancient city of Bast, which is about 5 km from Pi-Ramesses and Pithom (Exodus 1:11; Baines and Malek 1990: 175). 
During the reign of Pharaoh Teti, a young Egyptian of noble blood starts his rise in the Egyptian court as his father did before him.  His name is Weny or Weni he leads so he boasts on his funerary stela that he lead five campaigns into the Southern Levant enslaving the people there.  Then all alone, sat in judgment of Pepy’s I anointed Queen and then forced the enslaved folks to great tasks that some archaeologist proclaim as impossible!  Below are sites you can visit to determine for yourself.  (Please remember this Lord was claiming things he did while alive, and would therefore be judged by them in the all-important afterlife by his gods, primarily those Pharaohs he had served in life.  I do not believe this ancient lord made any of it up.)

The autobiography of Weni
Weni the Elder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
THE AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF WENI

Regarding Lord Weni’s judgment of the early Queen of Pepy I, it is interesting that the son of an assassinated Pharaoh would hold a private trial against an anointed Queen.  What reasons could have caused this?  Pepy I at this time would not be an old man incapable of ruling.  He surely was continuing in the ways of his father, who seeing Sargon the Great Empire growing would also have wanted good control over the Semitics in his borders and beyond.  One real possibility is that the anointed queen had adopted an outlawed infant son, making him in reality a true heir of Pepy I?  Bringing in a condemned child as son of Pharaoh’s daughter would have been sufficiently disgusting to the reigning Pharaoh Pepy I to have ordered a secret trial.  His own wife betrayed his order!  For those not well educated in Egyptian law, adoption was an important way of making ones name live after death without having a child.  It was a legal way to have a legal heir.

In due time, the Pharaoh that had tried to kill him died (Exodus 2:23) Pepy I had a long reign 40-50 years long.  Towards the end of it Pepy I finally had an heir, his name was Menkaurf, his mother was Queen Ankhenesmerire I the daughter of Nebet and Khui of Abydene and full sister to Queen Ankhenesmerire II, another Queen of Pepy I (mother of Pepy II) and Lord Djau.  Aside from expeditions into the southern Levant, expeditions were also into Nubia during this dynasty (Grimal 1992: 80-88).  Lord Weni lived well into Pharaoh Menkaurf’s brief reign.  His brief reign resulted in his half-brother/cousin Pepy II becoming Pharaoh as a very small child, he like Menkaurf had his Uncle Lord Djau and mother rule as co-regents until he came to age.  It is at the death of his uncle Djau that we can according to Biblical scripture place the time of Moses’ return to Egypt (Exodus 4:19).

According to Revised Edition Handbook of Biblical Chronology by Jack Finegan, 1998, Hendrickson Publishers; Table 107 pg. 206 gives us a rough dating of 232 years between Abraham and Joseph in Egypt.  This is nearly equal to the time from Queen Regent Merneith and Pharaoh Den to Pharaoh Khasekhemwy.  Scripture tells us that Moses leads the House of Israel out of Egypt 430 years after they entered (Exodus 12: 40) this is nearly equal to the end of the 6th dynasty and the rule of Pepy II. 

More events that coincide with Biblical scripture.  Redford 1992: 57.   Pepy II’s general dies at the hands of Asiatics at the shore of the Red Sea.  Exodus 14: 21-30.

Redford 1992: 63. Southern Levant shows marked change in society from semi-industrial to rustic pastoralism, stockbreeding dominating agriculture.

Grimal 1992: 138-139.  Egypt is depopulated, tombs robbed, poverty, and ruin sets upon the nation.  Notations of the Admonitions of Ipuwer   Exodus 12: 33-36.
See also Strudwick 2005: 227-229.

Mazar 1990:141. Jericho and more cities of  Canaan are destroyed at the end of the Early Bronze Age.




Bibliography

Baines, John and Jaromir Malek.  (1990). The Cultural Atlas of the World Ancient Egypt.   Stonehenge.
Grimal, Nicolas.  (1992).   A History of Ancient Egypt.  (English edition).  (Ian Shaw, trans.)  Blackwell.
Kanawati, Naguib.  (2003).   Conspiracies in the Egyptian Palace: Unis to Pepy I. Routledge.
Lesko, Barbara L.  (1999).   The Great Goddesses of Egypt. Oklahoma.
Mazar, Amihai.  (1992).  Archaeology of the Land of the Bible • 10,000—586 B.C.E. (first paperback edition).  Doubleday.
Redford, Donald B.  (1992).  Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times. Princeton.
Stiebing, Jr. William H. (2003).  Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture. Longman.
Strudwick, Nigel C.  (2005)  (Leprohon, R. J, Ed.). Texts from the Pyramid Age.
Society of Biblical Literature Atlanta.

An original piece based upon Pjbl2223@aol.com copyrighted 2000-2008 The Archaeological Chronology of Biblical Lands.  All rights reserved.

[Michael]

I would agree that the EB III provides a wonderful background for the Bible's stories. I am soon to publish a book detailing the matter. You forgot to mention the Great Famine that took place during this period.

However, this is just the foundation for a text that was added to over time. There are Iron age references in the text. Hittites lived with Abraham, which seems unlikely in the Early Bronze Age. Egypt didn't have chariots either, such as mentioned in the story of Joseph.

Hence, we see a layering of text over the ages.  There were specific techniques used to add text to ancient literature. These techniques  are discussed by Tigay in his work on Gilgamesh. By knowing these techniques and working backwards, one can deconstruct the text to get an Early Bronze Age document.

The very term "Israel" would not have existed in the Early Bronze Age either.

[Sekhmet]

Hello Michael thank you, sir for the post.  You are right there was a great famine in Egypt at the end of the Old Kingdom and I did forget to mention it.
 
I am sorry sir; I have to disagree with your assessment on the chariot.  Our fellow poster Turanclancath and I have been discussing this matter in the thread Deborah and the Iron Chariots.  Please see link below, post number 5 addresses your concern.  Hopefully adequately enough.
 
deborah and the iron war chariots
 
Regarding the Hittites, again archaeology does provide evidence of the Hittites in the 5th millennium only known as the "Kurgan" at that time.  Please see page 26,  Macqueen, J.G.  (1999). The Hittites and their Contemporaries in Asia Minor, Revised and Enlarged Edition.  ( 2nd paperback printing).  Thames and Hudson.  They were migrating from the Black Sea southward in the 4th millennium.  Using scripture and more modern archaeological advances from the last 30-20 years I believe the best placement for Abraham is during the early 3rd millennium.  Making it extremely possible that one or two Hittites/Kurgan/Indo-European speakers were present in the Levant during the early 3rd millennium as well.

May I ask why you believe that Israel the term could not have existed in the Early Bronze Age?

I like your term layering of texts, thank you.  My very best wishes sir, on the publication of your book.

Have a nice day Michael, to yours as to all.

[Michael]

I didn't see any archaelogical evidence that Egypt had chariots in the Early Bronze Age in that post.

In my work I had to also replace the word "Philistine" with "Phoenecian" as a correct translation in several places where it was used, especially in the story of Samson, a story based on the god Shamash.

The midrash claims the first pharaoh of Moses lived for 94 years, from age 6 to 100. This is the same as Pepi II who ruled during the Great Famine, when the Nile "turned to blood." There is also an Egyptian myth involving the goddess Hathor and Osiris in turning the Nile red.

I believe the first known use of the word "Israel"is from a stele which dates to about 1250 BCE or so. I sincerely doubt if the term was used earlier.  In the EB period the Canaanites were simply tribes. The Amorites were the main group. I suggest it is from the Amorites that the early stories evolved from borrowed Akkadian texts.

I believe Sayce is correct when he claims "Moses" is a from an Assyrian word "Masu" meaing "hero" and was use to descibe Marduk.  Most of the patriarchs are taken from Babylonian gods, similar to how the Catholic Church would take local dieties and make them into saints.  The Amorites would take gods and make them into patriarchs. Adam, Eve, Abraham, Moses, and Samson are examples.

[Sekhmet]

Thinking, thinking I will return to reply more fully.  I do appreciate your answer, hence my decision in pausing to answer it, at this time.

Other than to say:

The study of culture, anthopology explains very well, the absence of chariots and horses in the Old Kingdom sir.  If allowed to.

Myself, like Dr. John D. Currid sees greater relation between Egyptian and the Old Testament than Mesopotamian sources, sir. 

Currid, John D.  (Foreword by Kenneth A. Kitchen).  (1997).  Ancient Egypt and the Old Testament.  Baker Books.

Again thank you so very much for your answer, time, and consideration.  They will be returned sir.
As always my best to you and yours, as to all.

[Sekhmet]

I would agree that the EB III provides a wonderful background for the Bible's stories. I am soon to publish a book detailing the matter. You forgot to mention the Great Famine that took place during this period.

However, this is just the foundation for a text that was added to over time. There are Iron age references in the text. Hittites lived with Abraham, which seems unlikely in the Early Bronze Age. Egypt didn't have chariots either, such as mentioned in the story of Joseph.

Hence, we see a layering of text over the ages.  There were specific techniques used to add text to ancient literature. These techniques  are discussed by Tigay in his work on Gilgamesh. By knowing these techniques and working backwards, one can deconstruct the text to get an Early Bronze Age document.

The very term "Israel" would not have existed in the Early Bronze Age either.

Dear Michael, first let me say thank you for waiting on me while I gave proper attention to your post.  It is greatly appreciated, sir.

I try very hard not to tamper with scripture again, I am cautious in nature.  Saying that, I would not have pictures of horses or chariots in my Old Kingdom tomb.  During the Old Kingdom one’s afterlife was dependent on ‘your’ Pharaoh to provide you with the hoped for afterlife.  Since, documentation is rather substantial that it was only at the end of the fifth dynasty sir, that Pharaoh decorated his tomb walls at all.  Then it is with the Pyramid Texts not pictures of life hoped for in the afterlife.  Understanding this and that archaeology now can place with reasoned, and scholarly support for horses, and carts into the 3rd millennium I do not share your opinion, I am very sorry sir.  To turn up one’s nose at a form of transportation that saved time as did horses and carts is not within the traditional fashion of Egyptians.  Considered supportive of desired innovations, when everyone was using horses with a degree of skill that indicates long exposure of ‘the new thing’.  Again if allowed anthropology, culture can explain this. 

Donkeys we know today sir, certainly were domesticated within the 4th millennium (a. Akkerman and Schwartz 2005: 2006; b. McEvedy 2002: 26).  Regarding the archaeological remains: in Egypt, there exists the problem of the water table underneath it tends to destroy much the remains, and history especially the further back in time the study is.

The Midrash sir, dates according to my understanding to after Christ, after Manetho for that matter if my understanding is correct.

Midrash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Midrash - AOL Search Reference Center

Therefore, in my most humble opinion the Midrash is suspect regarding scripture, which predates Manetho.  Even the most severe critic of Biblical scripture predates it, to Manetho.  This lends in my view more support for scripture than the later creation of the Midrash based on scripture.  There is nothing wrong in using the Midrash, if you are interested in a later history.  Indirectly sir, I believe you have supported my view that later creations only submit to the then dominate belief of the Roman-Grecianphils of a young earth creation, thank you.

Manetho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I quote “….Although no sources for the dates of his life and death remain, his work is usually associated with the reigns of Ptolemy I Soter (323-283 BCE) and Ptolemy II Philadelphos (285-246 BCE). If the mention of Manetho in the Hibeh Papyri, dated to 240/1 BCE, is in fact Manetho the author of Aegyptiaca, then he may well have been working during the reign of Ptolemy III Euergetes (246-222 BCE) as well. Although he was Egyptian and his topics dealt with Egyptian matters, he wrote solely in Greek. Other works he wrote include Against Herodotus, The Sacred Book, On Antiquity and Religion, On Festivals, On the Preparation of Kyphi, and the Digest of Physics. The astrological treatise Book of Sothis has also been attributed to Manetho. In Aegyptiaca, he coined the term "dynasty" (Greek: dynasteia, abstractly meaning "governmental power") to represent groups of rulers with a common origin….”


The use of the Midrash sir, with its later creation can lead one to deduce that the mentioning of Pepy II in it.  Makes it a copy of Manetho’s work and recorded in Josephus own work.  Where I add we do obtain the better record of Manetho’s earlier non-suriving work.

While Dr. Hawass, Director of Egyptian Department of Anquities agrees with the extremely long reign of Pepy II.  The lastest attested year of his reign is the thirty third census, making serious question about his reign lasting 94 years (Nichols 1992: 89).  The Egyptian census sir, was held about every 2 years which occassional earlier ones if famine was really great (Wilkinson 1995: 113-114).  Myself, I suggest that the 99 years reign of Pepy II finds it origin in the desire to equal or surpass another culture.  Namely the the Sumerian city Adab King Lugal-Anne-Mundu who is credited with a rule of 90 years.   For details See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugal-Anne-Mundu  ruling as he does as an Sumerian not a Semitic would give the Egyptian temple scribes added reason to distort Pepy II’s reign.  Whether or not they did so during or after the Old Kingdom Exodus, I do not believe without better evidence, can be determined.

I tend in my work sir, to accept scripture as sound, and look at the body of evidence to support my work.  Since it starts in the 7th millennium BCE through the reign of Emperor Constantine.  I must say, I have not been denied evidence in fact the evidence is substanial, if we only look.

Archibald Henry Sayce (25 September 1846 - 4 February 1933), the pioneer Assyriologist and linguist is whom you are speaking of when you say “Sayce”?  Pioneers, sir have it hard.  Especially in science (Assyriology) and in languages as you pointed out in your the United Monarchy post dated 11/9/2008. 

You are an Assyriologist, sir?  I ask because you use Hathor and Osiris as examples of Egypt’s Nile flowing red.  Egyptianologists, sir understand that it was Ra, Sekhmet, and Thoth that are in the myth.  In all the myths of Sekhmet’s rage against mankind, it is the land that flows red not the river Nile.  For more please see more Ancient Egyptian Gods; Sekhmet
Osiris did not come to national prominence until the First Intermediate Period when there was a democratizing of the afterlife that in earlier periods of Egyptian history were so very dependent of Pharaoh’s goodwill.  Again, I am sorry sir. 

You are correct in your statement that Merenptah’s Victory Stele is the first known extra-Biblical mention of Israel.  To lump a group of wandering escape slaves as a people without a city-state as Merenptah does under the stanza of the Princes.  Indicates to me sir that he knew something, modern scholars are unwilling to address.  That Israel of the Divided Kingdom had ‘no seed’.  The preceding New Kingdom dynasty provides multiple indications that the Egyptians had a very good grasp of Canaanite, Syrian, Phoenician geography (give me some more time, and I can quote Dr. Donald Redford on that).  By using simply, the recorded wars of Tuthmose III, to the El Amarna Letters this knowledge of the ancients was extensive. 

Prior to and during the United Monarchy, the Bible records only the term, the sons of Israel after they discarded the term Hebrew.  Do not quote me on this, however I believe scripture keeps the ‘sons of Israel’ pretty much to the united monarchy state, the late pre-monarchy period and centered on the ten tribes that eventually made up the nation state of Israel.

I find it extremely interesting that the Amorites are such a large and important people, Semitic in origins, while the Hebrews scare up so little archaeological evidence.  Could it be, scholars clinging to archaic history confuse them?  They both meet much of the same criteria Semitic, nomads, warriors, and destroyers.  The evidence is not convincing one way, or the other to me as of this time.  Except that, they originated after Sargon the Great, and during the late Egyptian Old Kingdom.

Again, thank you so very much for your time, consideration, and answers.  Such a pleasure it has been discussing this with you I hope, we continue.




Sources other than links:

Akkermans, Peter M. M.G. and Glenn M. Schwartz.  (2005). The Archaeology of Syria: From Complex Hunter- to Early Urban Societies (ca. 16,00-300 BC.)[/]  (Third Printing).   Cambridge.                 
Grimal, Nicolas.  (1992).   A History of Ancient Egypt. (English edition).  (Ian Shaw, trans.)  Blackwell.
McEvedy, Colin.  (2002).  The New Penguin Atlas of Ancient History. (2nd edition).  Penguin. 
Wilkinson, Toby A. H.  (1999).  Early Dynastic Egypt. Routledge.

[turanclancath]

Chronology of Ancient Egypt - Dr. Zahi Hawass

For the convinience of all
the chronology of Dr.Hawass.

turanclancath:)

[Michael]

I would agree that the EB III provides a wonderful background for the Bible's stories. I am soon to publish a book detailing the matter. You forgot to mention the Great Famine that took place during this period.

However, this is just the foundation for a text that was added to over time. There are Iron age references in the text. Hittites lived with Abraham, which seems unlikely in the Early Bronze Age. Egypt didn't have chariots either, such as mentioned in the story of Joseph.

Hence, we see a layering of text over the ages.  There were specific techniques used to add text to ancient literature. These techniques  are discussed by Tigay in his work on Gilgamesh. By knowing these techniques and working backwards, one can deconstruct the text to get an Early Bronze Age document.

The very term "Israel" would not have existed in the Early Bronze Age either.

Dear Michael, first let me say thank you for waiting on me while I gave proper attention to your post.  It is greatly appreciated, sir.

I try very hard not to tamper with scripture again, I am cautious in nature.  Saying that, I would not have pictures of horses or chariots in my Old Kingdom tomb.  During the Old Kingdom one’s afterlife was dependent on ‘your’ Pharaoh to provide you with the hoped for afterlife.  Since, documentation is rather substantial that it was only at the end of the fifth dynasty sir, that Pharaoh decorated his tomb walls at all.  Then it is with the Pyramid Texts not pictures of life hoped for in the afterlife.  Understanding this and that archaeology now can place with reasoned, and scholarly support for horses, and carts into the 3rd millennium I do not share your opinion, I am very sorry sir.  To turn up one’s nose at a form of transportation that saved time as did horses and carts is not within the traditional fashion of Egyptians.  Considered supportive of desired innovations, when everyone was using horses with a degree of skill that indicates long exposure of ‘the new thing’.  Again if allowed anthropology, culture can explain this. 

Donkeys we know today sir, certainly were domesticated within the 4th millennium (a. Akkerman and Schwartz 2005: 2006; b. McEvedy 2002: 26).  Regarding the archaeological remains: in Egypt, there exists the problem of the water table underneath it tends to destroy much the remains, and history especially the further back in time the study is.

The Midrash sir, dates according to my understanding to after Christ, after Manetho for that matter if my understanding is correct.

Midrash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Midrash - AOL Search Reference Center

Therefore, in my most humble opinion the Midrash is suspect regarding scripture, which predates Manetho.  Even the most severe critic of Biblical scripture predates it, to Manetho.  This lends in my view more support for scripture than the later creation of the Midrash based on scripture.  There is nothing wrong in using the Midrash, if you are interested in a later history.  Indirectly sir, I believe you have supported my view that later creations only submit to the then dominate belief of the Roman-Grecianphils of a young earth creation, thank you.

Manetho - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I quote “….Although no sources for the dates of his life and death remain, his work is usually associated with the reigns of Ptolemy I Soter (323-283 BCE) and Ptolemy II Philadelphos (285-246 BCE). If the mention of Manetho in the Hibeh Papyri, dated to 240/1 BCE, is in fact Manetho the author of Aegyptiaca, then he may well have been working during the reign of Ptolemy III Euergetes (246-222 BCE) as well. Although he was Egyptian and his topics dealt with Egyptian matters, he wrote solely in Greek. Other works he wrote include Against Herodotus, The Sacred Book, On Antiquity and Religion, On Festivals, On the Preparation of Kyphi, and the Digest of Physics. The astrological treatise Book of Sothis has also been attributed to Manetho. In Aegyptiaca, he coined the term "dynasty" (Greek: dynasteia, abstractly meaning "governmental power") to represent groups of rulers with a common origin….”


The use of the Midrash sir, with its later creation can lead one to deduce that the mentioning of Pepy II in it.  Makes it a copy of Manetho’s work and recorded in Josephus own work.  Where I add we do obtain the better record of Manetho’s earlier non-suriving work.

While Dr. Hawass, Director of Egyptian Department of Anquities agrees with the extremely long reign of Pepy II.  The lastest attested year of his reign is the thirty third census, making serious question about his reign lasting 94 years (Nichols 1992: 89).  The Egyptian census sir, was held about every 2 years which occassional earlier ones if famine was really great (Wilkinson 1995: 113-114).  Myself, I suggest that the 99 years reign of Pepy II finds it origin in the desire to equal or surpass another culture.  Namely the the Sumerian city Adab King Lugal-Anne-Mundu who is credited with a rule of 90 years.   For details See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugal-Anne-Mundu  ruling as he does as an Sumerian not a Semitic would give the Egyptian temple scribes added reason to distort Pepy II’s reign.  Whether or not they did so during or after the Old Kingdom Exodus, I do not believe without better evidence, can be determined.

I tend in my work sir, to accept scripture as sound, and look at the body of evidence to support my work.  Since it starts in the 7th millennium BCE through the reign of Emperor Constantine.  I must say, I have not been denied evidence in fact the evidence is substanial, if we only look.

Archibald Henry Sayce (25 September 1846 - 4 February 1933), the pioneer Assyriologist and linguist is whom you are speaking of when you say “Sayce”?  Pioneers, sir have it hard.  Especially in science (Assyriology) and in languages as you pointed out in your the United Monarchy post dated 11/9/2008. 

You are an Assyriologist, sir?  I ask because you use Hathor and Osiris as examples of Egypt’s Nile flowing red.  Egyptianologists, sir understand that it was Ra, Sekhmet, and Thoth that are in the myth.  In all the myths of Sekhmet’s rage against mankind, it is the land that flows red not the river Nile.  For more please see more Ancient Egyptian Gods; Sekhmet
Osiris did not come to national prominence until the First Intermediate Period when there was a democratizing of the afterlife that in earlier periods of Egyptian history were so very dependent of Pharaoh’s goodwill.  Again, I am sorry sir. 

You are correct in your statement that Merenptah’s Victory Stele is the first known extra-Biblical mention of Israel.  To lump a group of wandering escape slaves as a people without a city-state as Merenptah does under the stanza of the Princes.  Indicates to me sir that he knew something, modern scholars are unwilling to address.  That Israel of the Divided Kingdom had ‘no seed’.  The preceding New Kingdom dynasty provides multiple indications that the Egyptians had a very good grasp of Canaanite, Syrian, Phoenician geography (give me some more time, and I can quote Dr. Donald Redford on that).  By using simply, the recorded wars of Tuthmose III, to the El Amarna Letters this knowledge of the ancients was extensive. 

Prior to and during the United Monarchy, the Bible records only the term, the sons of Israel after they discarded the term Hebrew.  Do not quote me on this, however I believe scripture keeps the ‘sons of Israel’ pretty much to the united monarchy state, the late pre-monarchy period and centered on the ten tribes that eventually made up the nation state of Israel.

I find it extremely interesting that the Amorites are such a large and important people, Semitic in origins, while the Hebrews scare up so little archaeological evidence.  Could it be, scholars clinging to archaic history confuse them?  They both meet much of the same criteria Semitic, nomads, warriors, and destroyers.  The evidence is not convincing one way, or the other to me as of this time.  Except that, they originated after Sargon the Great, and during the late Egyptian Old Kingdom.

Again, thank you so very much for your time, consideration, and answers.  Such a pleasure it has been discussing this with you I hope, we continue.




Sources other than links:

Akkermans, Peter M. M.G. and Glenn M. Schwartz.  (2005). The Archaeology of Syria: From Complex Hunter- to Early Urban Societies (ca. 16,00-300 BC.)[/]  (Third Printing).   Cambridge.                 
Grimal, Nicolas.  (1992).   A History of Ancient Egypt. (English edition).  (Ian Shaw, trans.)  Blackwell.
McEvedy, Colin.  (2002).  The New Penguin Atlas of Ancient History. (2nd edition).  Penguin. 
Wilkinson, Toby A. H.  (1999).  Early Dynastic Egypt. Routledge.

The midrashim, I agree came later, although I have seen estimates as early as 200 BCE for the first writings. Mostly the stories are fanciful an are based upon Greek influence. Some are not. When I had made up my mind that Pepi II was the first pharaoh of Moses, Ithe read the midrash. I thought it was an amazing coincedence that the rabbis perhaps had a long oral tradition about the pharaohs of the Exodus, and that it concendently was the same reign as the pharoah I had selected and the dates of the only pharoah that ever ruled that long.  The midrash was used for confiramtionof information I had already knew.

I am confused by your post. Are you claiming Egypt had chariots before they had chariots because the Bible says so?

The use of Hathor and Osirius was what I found in my sources on the topic. Hathor was an ancient goddess, very much worshipped in the EB III period. The city of Hazor, and EB city was named after her and a Hathor worship center. Osiris was around for quite some time too. He was the constellaton Orion.

Sekhmet seems to have associated with Hathor. The constellation of Draco in Denderah is claimed to be Sekhmet by some scholars and Hathor by others. 

The story of Moses appears to be of asian origin. Egypt did not use pitch to shore up boats. Wax and wet papyrus was used as sealants. Pitch was very rare and was saved for the mummification process. The use of pitch to seal up moses' raft appears to be asian as that was a common asian sealant. The tale of the basket in the river comes from Sargon I. Joseph Campbell claims it is a cosmic myth. Sargon was associated with Marduk. At the vernal equinox Sargon would don the robes of Marduk and play his role in an annual play. Likewise the story of Moses is simply a support narrative to justify the celebration of the vernal equinox (Passover).

Scholars do not believe Israel was ever a slave in Egypt, nor do they believe there was an Exodus from Egypt due to a lack of any influx of Egytian words, names and customs into the existing Canaanite culture.

I am not really big on the tribes and the divided kingdom. There is really no evidence of "Jews" until about the 4th century BCE.  I believe the history of the Jews to have been an Oliver Stone version of the real history in order to unite Judea. It is a collection of Babylonian cosmic myths, interwoven with history and laws.

There are some rogue scholars who are having second thoughts about the orign of the Hebrews and the Jews. With the discovery of the Ebla texts, many are starting, very slowly as scholars alwaysdo, and being very non-committal, to look at the Northern area of the Amorites as the birthplace or home of Judahism.

[Sekhmet]

My dear sir, thank you for your time, and consideration I regret confusing you.  The power of anthropology is tremendous at times.  I am not saying horses or donkeys where in Egypt at all in the Old Kingdom period.  Just that there exists the possibility of them being there, because archaeology has provided the evidence of them.  That dates them to the early third millennium in the care of mankind.  We can always blame redactors for mentioning chariots with Joseph, and Moses if we do not want horses or donkeys in the Old Kingdom.  We just cannot say definitely that they did not.  Science, sir moved forward or is that backward?


With regards to your assessment on the story of Moses being Asiatic in origin, I agree.  Unless C-14 dating does in fact move the Old Kingdom another thousand years back in time.  Sargon I, the Great does use it first.  That does not mean that a Hebrew slave in Egypt did not know the story, and used it to save her youngest son from the fate decreed by pharaonic law.  I find her using pitch ingenious, I can see her begging a bowl or two of resin (and that is what pitch is really especially in Egypt) from fellow slaves to strengthen the longitudal sag inherited in a long narrow reed basket.  The basket handle would be working much as the hog-tressing famous in Egyptian ship description from the 4th through the 18th dynasty.  In such a vessel, Moses would be safe for sometime from sinking anyway.


I find the scholars have more or less thrown out the Bible, in favor of Josephus and Archbishop Ussher works neither known for their archaeological skills to be honest.  Therefore, granny here reading and wanting to write decided to reevaluate once again, the current standing of scholarly overview of Biblical history.  Resulting in my being here and I am so happy to be here writing with such fine people like yourself, Kattey, Moses, and my most dear Turanclancath.  Thank you Michael, for your attention, it is appreciated.

To you and yours a nice day, as to all.

[Michael]

My dear sir, thank you for your time, and consideration I regret confusing you.  The power of anthropology is tremendous at times.  I am not saying horses or donkeys where in Egypt at all in the Old Kingdom period.  Just that there exists the possibility of them being there, because archaeology has provided the evidence of them.  That dates them to the early third millennium in the care of mankind.  We can always blame redactors for mentioning chariots with Joseph, and Moses if we do not want horses or donkeys in the Old Kingdom.  We just cannot say definitely that they did not.  Science, sir moved forward or is that backward?


With regards to your assessment on the story of Moses being Asiatic in origin, I agree.  Unless C-14 dating does in fact move the Old Kingdom another thousand years back in time.  Sargon I, the Great does use it first.  That does not mean that a Hebrew slave in Egypt did not know the story, and used it to save her youngest son from the fate decreed by pharaonic law.  I find her using pitch ingenious, I can see her begging a bowl or two of resin (and that is what pitch is really especially in Egypt) from fellow slaves to strengthen the longitudal sag inherited in a long narrow reed basket.  The basket handle would be working much as the hog-tressing famous in Egyptian ship description from the 4th through the 18th dynasty.  In such a vessel, Moses would be safe for sometime from sinking anyway.


I find the scholars have more or less thrown out the Bible, in favor of Josephus and Archbishop Ussher works neither known for their archaeological skills to be honest.  Therefore, granny here reading and wanting to write decided to reevaluate once again, the current standing of scholarly overview of Biblical history.  Resulting in my being here and I am so happy to be here writing with such fine people like yourself, Kattey, Moses, and my most dear Turanclancath.  Thank you Michael, for your attention, it is appreciated.

To you and yours a nice day, as to all.

Why beg for pitch when some wax or wet papyrus was around? I don't see it. The pitch ties into the story of Sargon (Asian) and the name Moses (Masu) being Asian. 

Josephus was an historian, but back then they wrote history the way Oliver Stone wrote history. They were not beyond embellishing history or making their opinions facts, i.e. Josephus believing the Hyksos were the Hebrews of the Exodus.

My claim is that the story of Moses is derived from the same cosmic myth as that of Sargon and Marduk, separated by only  a few centuries. It concerns the vernal equinox. For Sargon the vernal equinox is Taurus the bull(golden calf). For Moses it is the Pleaides, which was considered by the Hebrews as part of Aries (the lamb.) Later Bacchus/Dionysus would have a similar tale except it would not include the Pleiades, just Aries which accounts for differences and well as the similarities.

The chariots in Egypt, again I believe show an Asian viewpoint as the pitch.

[Sekhmet]

Why beg for pitch when some wax or wet papyrus was around? I don't see it. The pitch ties into the story of Sargon (Asian) and the name Moses (Masu) being Asian. 

Josephus was an historian, but back then they wrote history the way Oliver Stone wrote history. They were not beyond embellishing history or making their opinions facts, i.e. Josephus believing the Hyksos were the Hebrews of the Exodus.

My claim is that the story of Moses is derived from the same cosmic myth as that of Sargon and Marduk, separated by only  a few centuries. It concerns the vernal equinox. For Sargon the vernal equinox is Taurus the bull(golden calf). For Moses it is the Pleaides, which was considered by the Hebrews as part of Aries (the lamb.) Later Bacchus/Dionysus would have a similar tale except it would not include the Pleiades, just Aries which accounts for differences and well as the similarities.

The chariots in Egypt, again I believe show an Asian viewpoint as the pitch.

Why would a slave woman beg for resin?  Well, in the Old Kingdom it was very important and costly item used by the rich for the preservation of their mummy.  It was frequently imported into Egypt because Egypt did not possess the kind of trees needed for resin production.  I am not aware of wax being plentiful in an Old Kingdom setting sir.  Oil was used for lighting, and clay for sealing.  Slaves could obtain their wants and needs in clever ways our own history in slavery shows this.

The name Moses being Egyptian or Asian in origin is not a problem for me period.  The problem begins when we consider Moses as the name his people called him and his subtitles Law Giver, and Liberator.

While the last fully Egyptian King prior (?) Hyksos is the first to use the ending mose in his name.  It is a common name ending in the late 17th and early 18th dynasty where we see the Theban based pharaohs fighting for 'liberation' from the Hyksos.  Kamose, Ahmose, Thutmose I find this very interesting.

If the classical era historians are basically setting up the example for Oliver Stone history.  Why do we still defer to them over archaeological findings from the last 20-30 years?

Not knowing your sources sir, I am cautious in dismissing them but my own sources claim that Dagon was Sargon's the Great God, he did not cast himself as Dagon.  His grandson Naran Sin came the closet to that and in the end was censored for this "sin."  According to my primary source Marduk was hailed and elevated by Hammurabi.  Making him in my humble opinion all things considered the Biblical Cushon-Rastathaim, King of Mesopotamia of the early Judges period) Judges 3:8.  Please see link for more on this.

Cushan-rishathaim uncovered

Again it has been most pleasurable in discussing this with you sir.  To you and yours a great day, at to all.

Sources:
Saggs, H.W.F.  (2000). People of the Past Babylonians.  California.  pages 98-108.

Stiebing, Jr. William H. (2003).  Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture. Longman.  pages 65-71.

[Michael]

Why beg for pitch when some wax or wet papyrus was around? I don't see it. The pitch ties into the story of Sargon (Asian) and the name Moses (Masu) being Asian. 

Josephus was an historian, but back then they wrote history the way Oliver Stone wrote history. They were not beyond embellishing history or making their opinions facts, i.e. Josephus believing the Hyksos were the Hebrews of the Exodus.

My claim is that the story of Moses is derived from the same cosmic myth as that of Sargon and Marduk, separated by only  a few centuries. It concerns the vernal equinox. For Sargon the vernal equinox is Taurus the bull(golden calf). For Moses it is the Pleaides, which was considered by the Hebrews as part of Aries (the lamb.) Later Bacchus/Dionysus would have a similar tale except it would not include the Pleiades, just Aries which accounts for differences and well as the similarities.

The chariots in Egypt, again I believe show an Asian viewpoint as the pitch.

Why would a slave woman beg for resin?  Well, in the Old Kingdom it was very important and costly item used by the rich for the preservation of their mummy.  It was frequently imported into Egypt because Egypt did not possess the kind of trees needed for resin production.  I am not aware of wax being plentiful in an Old Kingdom setting sir.  Oil was used for lighting, and clay for sealing.  Slaves could obtain their wants and needs in clever ways our own history in slavery shows this.

The name Moses being Egyptian or Asian in origin is not a problem for me period.  The problem begins when we consider Moses as the name his people called him and his subtitles Law Giver, and Liberator.

While the last fully Egyptian King prior (?) Hyksos is the first to use the ending mose in his name.  It is a common name ending in the late 17th and early 18th dynasty where we see the Theban based pharaohs fighting for 'liberation' from the Hyksos.  Kamose, Ahmose, Thutmose I find this very interesting.

If the classical era historians are basically setting up the example for Oliver Stone history.  Why do we still defer to them over archaeological findings from the last 20-30 years?

Not knowing your sources sir, I am cautious in dismissing them but my own sources claim that Dagon was Sargon's the Great God, he did not cast himself as Dagon.  His grandson Naran Sin came the closet to that and in the end was censored for this "sin."  According to my primary source Marduk was hailed and elevated by Hammurabi.  Making him in my humble opinion all things considered the Biblical Cushon-Rastathaim, King of Mesopotamia of the early Judges period) Judges 3:8.  Please see link for more on this.

Cushan-rishathaim uncovered

Again it has been most pleasurable in discussing this with you sir.  To you and yours a great day, at to all.

Sources:
Saggs, H.W.F.  (2000). People of the Past Babylonians.  California.  pages 98-108.

Stiebing, Jr. William H. (2003).  Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture. Longman.  pages 65-71.

I never made the claim Dagon was Sargon's god. It was Marduk, or AMAR.UTU. You are confusing my posts.  At the vernal equinox the Akkadian King would don the robes of Marduk and defeat chaos.


 
 
 
Encyclopedia > Zagmuk NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Zagmuk
Zagmuk is a Mesopotamian festival celebrated around the vernal equinox, which literally means "beginning of the year". It celebrates the triumph of Marduk, the patron deity of Babylon, over the forces of chaos, symbolized in later times by Tiamet. The battle between Marduk and chaos lasts 12 days, as does the festival of Zagmuk. In Uruk the festival was associated with the god An, the Sumerian god of the night sky. Both are essentially equivalent in all respects to the Akkadian "akitu" festival. In some variations, Marduk is slain by Tiamet and resurrected on the vernal equinox.[1] Mesopotamia was a cradle of civilization geographically located between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, largely corresponding to modern-day Iraq. ... Illumination of Earth by Sun on the day of equinox The vernal equinox (or spring equinox) marks the beginning of astronomical spring. ... Marduk (Sumerian spelling in Akkadian: AMAR.UTU solar calf; Biblical: Merodach) was the Babylonian name of a late-generation god from ancient Mesopotamia and patron deity of the city of Babylon, who, when Babylon permanently became the political center of the Euphrates valley in the time of Hammurabi (18th century... For other uses, see Babylon (disambiguation). ...


In Babylon, the battle was acted out at the royal court with the king playing Marduk, and his son-rescuer as Nabu, the god of writing. Once freed from the powers of the underworld, the king would enact the rite of the Sacred Marriage on the 10th day of the ceremony. During this rite, the king (or En, as he was known in Sumer) would perform sexual intercourse with his spouse, normally a high priestess who had been chosen from among the "naditum," a special class of priestesses who had taken a vow not of celibacy precisely, but of a refusal to bear children. The high priestess was known as the entu, and her ritual act of intercourse with the king was thought to regenerate the cosmos through a reenactment of the primordial coupling of the cosmic parents An and Ki, who had brought the world into being at the dawn of Time. If an eclipse of the sun fell on any of the 12 days of the ceremony, a substitute for the king was put in his place, since it was thought that any evils which might have befallen the king would accrue to the substitute instead. On the last day of the festival, the king was slain so that he could battle at Marduk's side. To spare their king, Mesopotamians often utilized a mock king, played by a crimimal who was anointed as king before the start of Zagmuk, and killed on the last day.


In addition to the prisoner who was killed, it was traditional for one prisoner to be set free during this ceremony to provide balance. Thus, the background for what later became Passover and then Easter is clearly visible here, for during Christ's crucifixion on Passover, the thief Barabbas was set free and Christ was crucified at the behest of the crowd.

Sargon of Akkad: Information from Answers.com

Famine and war threatened Sargon's empire during the latter years of his reign. The Chronicle of Early Kings reports that revolts broke out throughout the area under the last years of his overlordship:

“ Afterward in his [Sargon's] old age all the lands revolted against him, and they besieged him in Akkad; and Sargon went forth to battle and defeated them; he accomplished their overthrow, and heir widespreading host he destroyed. Afterward he attacked the land of Subartu in his might, and they submitted to his arms, and Sargon settled that revolt, and defeated them; he accomplished their overthrow, and their widespreading host he destroyed, and he brought their possessions into Akkad. The soil from the trenches of Babylon he removed, and the boundaries of Akkad he made like those of Babylon. But because of the evil which he had committed, the great lord Marduk was angry, and he destroyed his people by famine. From the rising of the sun unto the setting of the sun they opposed him and gave him no rest.[31]

Marduk's Akkadian name was known as AMAR.UTU. Marduk is spelled AMAR.UTU in Sumerian, literally, "the calf of Utu" or "the young bull of the Sun". Marduk was not a major god in Sargon's age, just the solar god of the vernal equinox.







 
 
 
 

[Sekhmet]

I never made the claim Dagon was Sargon's god. It was Marduk, or AMAR.UTU. You are confusing my posts.  At the vernal equinox the Akkadian King would don the robes of Marduk and defeat chaos.


 
 
 
Encyclopedia > Zagmuk NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Zagmuk
Zagmuk is a Mesopotamian festival celebrated around the vernal equinox, which literally means "beginning of the year". It celebrates the triumph of Marduk, the patron deity of Babylon, over the forces of chaos, symbolized in later times by Tiamet. The battle between Marduk and chaos lasts 12 days, as does the festival of Zagmuk. In Uruk the festival was associated with the god An, the Sumerian god of the night sky. Both are essentially equivalent in all respects to the Akkadian "akitu" festival. In some variations, Marduk is slain by Tiamet and resurrected on the vernal equinox.[1] Mesopotamia was a cradle of civilization geographically located between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, largely corresponding to modern-day Iraq. ... Illumination of Earth by Sun on the day of equinox The vernal equinox (or spring equinox) marks the beginning of astronomical spring. ... Marduk (Sumerian spelling in Akkadian: AMAR.UTU solar calf; Biblical: Merodach) was the Babylonian name of a late-generation god from ancient Mesopotamia and patron deity of the city of Babylon, who, when Babylon permanently became the political center of the Euphrates valley in the time of Hammurabi (18th century... For other uses, see Babylon (disambiguation). ...


In Babylon, the battle was acted out at the royal court with the king playing Marduk, and his son-rescuer as Nabu, the god of writing. Once freed from the powers of the underworld, the king would enact the rite of the Sacred Marriage on the 10th day of the ceremony. During this rite, the king (or En, as he was known in Sumer) would perform sexual intercourse with his spouse, normally a high priestess who had been chosen from among the "naditum," a special class of priestesses who had taken a vow not of celibacy precisely, but of a refusal to bear children. The high priestess was known as the entu, and her ritual act of intercourse with the king was thought to regenerate the cosmos through a reenactment of the primordial coupling of the cosmic parents An and Ki, who had brought the world into being at the dawn of Time. If an eclipse of the sun fell on any of the 12 days of the ceremony, a substitute for the king was put in his place, since it was thought that any evils which might have befallen the king would accrue to the substitute instead. On the last day of the festival, the king was slain so that he could battle at Marduk's side. To spare their king, Mesopotamians often utilized a mock king, played by a crimimal who was anointed as king before the start of Zagmuk, and killed on the last day.


In addition to the prisoner who was killed, it was traditional for one prisoner to be set free during this ceremony to provide balance. Thus, the background for what later became Passover and then Easter is clearly visible here, for during Christ's crucifixion on Passover, the thief Barabbas was set free and Christ was crucified at the behest of the crowd.

Sargon of Akkad: Information from Answers.com

Famine and war threatened Sargon's empire during the latter years of his reign. The Chronicle of Early Kings reports that revolts broke out throughout the area under the last years of his overlordship:

“ Afterward in his [Sargon's] old age all the lands revolted against him, and they besieged him in Akkad; and Sargon went forth to battle and defeated them; he accomplished their overthrow, and heir widespreading host he destroyed. Afterward he attacked the land of Subartu in his might, and they submitted to his arms, and Sargon settled that revolt, and defeated them; he accomplished their overthrow, and their widespreading host he destroyed, and he brought their possessions into Akkad. The soil from the trenches of Babylon he removed, and the boundaries of Akkad he made like those of Babylon. But because of the evil which he had committed, the great lord Marduk was angry, and he destroyed his people by famine. From the rising of the sun unto the setting of the sun they opposed him and gave him no rest.[31]

Marduk's Akkadian name was known as AMAR.UTU. Marduk is spelled AMAR.UTU in Sumerian, literally, "the calf of Utu" or "the young bull of the Sun". Marduk was not a major god in Sargon's age, just the solar god of the vernal equinox.


 
 
 

No sir, I am not confused at all.  My sources state that Dagon is Sargon's god.  You want me to accept a much later local Babylonian god Marduk as Sargon's.  This is not possible unless you are simply using a redactor's lack of knowledge of history and laziness in substituting of AMAR.UTU to agree with Marduk.  I am very sorry sir, I am not confused although perhaps I can see why you would like me to be.

I am very sorry sir.  Hammurabi, of Babylon 1st Dynasty, elevated Marduk as the primary god of the Akkadian speaking world.

[Michael]

I never made the claim Dagon was Sargon's god. It was Marduk, or AMAR.UTU. You are confusing my posts.  At the vernal equinox the Akkadian King would don the robes of Marduk and defeat chaos.


 
 
 
Encyclopedia > Zagmuk NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Zagmuk
Zagmuk is a Mesopotamian festival celebrated around the vernal equinox, which literally means "beginning of the year". It celebrates the triumph of Marduk, the patron deity of Babylon, over the forces of chaos, symbolized in later times by Tiamet. The battle between Marduk and chaos lasts 12 days, as does the festival of Zagmuk. In Uruk the festival was associated with the god An, the Sumerian god of the night sky. Both are essentially equivalent in all respects to the Akkadian "akitu" festival. In some variations, Marduk is slain by Tiamet and resurrected on the vernal equinox.[1] Mesopotamia was a cradle of civilization geographically located between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, largely corresponding to modern-day Iraq. ... Illumination of Earth by Sun on the day of equinox The vernal equinox (or spring equinox) marks the beginning of astronomical spring. ... Marduk (Sumerian spelling in Akkadian: AMAR.UTU solar calf; Biblical: Merodach) was the Babylonian name of a late-generation god from ancient Mesopotamia and patron deity of the city of Babylon, who, when Babylon permanently became the political center of the Euphrates valley in the time of Hammurabi (18th century... For other uses, see Babylon (disambiguation). ...


In Babylon, the battle was acted out at the royal court with the king playing Marduk, and his son-rescuer as Nabu, the god of writing. Once freed from the powers of the underworld, the king would enact the rite of the Sacred Marriage on the 10th day of the ceremony. During this rite, the king (or En, as he was known in Sumer) would perform sexual intercourse with his spouse, normally a high priestess who had been chosen from among the "naditum," a special class of priestesses who had taken a vow not of celibacy precisely, but of a refusal to bear children. The high priestess was known as the entu, and her ritual act of intercourse with the king was thought to regenerate the cosmos through a reenactment of the primordial coupling of the cosmic parents An and Ki, who had brought the world into being at the dawn of Time. If an eclipse of the sun fell on any of the 12 days of the ceremony, a substitute for the king was put in his place, since it was thought that any evils which might have befallen the king would accrue to the substitute instead. On the last day of the festival, the king was slain so that he could battle at Marduk's side. To spare their king, Mesopotamians often utilized a mock king, played by a crimimal who was anointed as king before the start of Zagmuk, and killed on the last day.


In addition to the prisoner who was killed, it was traditional for one prisoner to be set free during this ceremony to provide balance. Thus, the background for what later became Passover and then Easter is clearly visible here, for during Christ's crucifixion on Passover, the thief Barabbas was set free and Christ was crucified at the behest of the crowd.

Sargon of Akkad: Information from Answers.com

Famine and war threatened Sargon's empire during the latter years of his reign. The Chronicle of Early Kings reports that revolts broke out throughout the area under the last years of his overlordship:

“ Afterward in his [Sargon's] old age all the lands revolted against him, and they besieged him in Akkad; and Sargon went forth to battle and defeated them; he accomplished their overthrow, and heir widespreading host he destroyed. Afterward he attacked the land of Subartu in his might, and they submitted to his arms, and Sargon settled that revolt, and defeated them; he accomplished their overthrow, and their widespreading host he destroyed, and he brought their possessions into Akkad. The soil from the trenches of Babylon he removed, and the boundaries of Akkad he made like those of Babylon. But because of the evil which he had committed, the great lord Marduk was angry, and he destroyed his people by famine. From the rising of the sun unto the setting of the sun they opposed him and gave him no rest.[31]

Marduk's Akkadian name was known as AMAR.UTU. Marduk is spelled AMAR.UTU in Sumerian, literally, "the calf of Utu" or "the young bull of the Sun". Marduk was not a major god in Sargon's age, just the solar god of the vernal equinox.


 
 
 

No sir, I am not confused at all.  My sources state that Dagon is Sargon's god.  You want me to accept a much later local Babylonian god Marduk as Sargon's.  This is not possible unless you are simply using a redactor's lack of knowledge of history and laziness in substituting of AMAR.UTU to agree with Marduk.  I am very sorry sir, I am not confused although perhaps I can see why you would like me to be.

I am very sorry sir.  Hammurabi, of Babylon 1st Dynasty, elevated Marduk as the primary god of the Akkadian speaking world.

It is immaterial if Hammurabi elevated an existing god to the supreme god. My point is that argon acted in the role of that god at the vernal equinox as part of his kingly duties. Marduk didn't have to be the chief god.

Dagon wasn't even a Babylonian/Sumerian/Akkadian god.  When Sargon conquered northen Mesopatamia he venerated Dagon, i.e. paid his respects to the god of the conquered people. That was not his surpreme god. The supreme god would be the moon god Sin. That would be his main diety. He appointed his own daughter to be the priestess of the moon god. She would be the earthly representation of Ishtar (Venus) te consort of the moon god. They would give birth to the sun god. (Early version of the conception of Jesus as Ishtar was also Virgo, the virgin.) Marduk represented the sun of the vernal equinox, which was in the zodiac sign of Taurus.

AMAR.UTU is the early Akkadian version of Marduk. I don't believe James Pritchard would appreciate you calling him lazy.

[turanclancath]

  Dear Forumists

A friend of mine posted this in another Forum.

About Weels Chariots and horses.



403 Forbidden


and here  are  the chapters  of the book.
chapter 10- 14 are most interesting for our chariot discussion.
chapter 13 pag 306 why not a kurgan culture ?

 shows its a
derivated Gimbutas hypothesis

Table of Contents for Anthony, D.: The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.









Seems interesting .

Saluti Turanclancath







 have an excellent book to suggest: The Horse, The Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World by David W. Anthony. It was published by Princeton University Press in 2007. The author is professor of anthropology at Hartwick College, and has done archaeological work in the Ukraine and Kazakhstan.
 
His premise is that half the world's population speaks languages derived from a shared linguistic source, Proto-Indo-European. His study examines the early speakers of this 'mother tongue' and offers a theory of how the early inhabitants of the Steppes, with their use of horses and the wheel spread the early language, and thereby 'changed' the world.   
 
It is an academic work, full of graphs and illustrations. I am delighted to recommend it, and look forward to completing my own reading of it!