Actual 'Exodus' the Hyksos story?

[turanclancath]

Welcome DHL.
Your posting about that   Dame Kathleen Kenyon  was correct in dating the fall of Jericho   circa  1550 BC did me very good.

We had an older discussion in the topic Ancient Israel:

 The walls of Jericho did tumble down.

i posted this then

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     Re: Jericho's walls did fall down
« Reply #19 on: Feb 24, 2009, 04:26 AM »   

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http://members.bib-arch.org/publication.asp?PubID=BSBA&Volume=35&Issue=2&ArticleID=5

According to the newest article  about Jericho in the newest   BAR Volume  febr/march
The walls of Jericho tumbled down circa 1550.
Good old Dame Kenyon was right!!!! see  also de Bruin and vander Plicht.
in

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Jericho


Prof Hendel the BAR  author is an Berkeley Professor
( 1 of the Ivey leages )  so knows his trade   i think!!

Turanclancath 
 
« Last Edit: Feb 
 
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The point is open the link nation master in the article.
There you find that Bruinsma and van der Plicht Radiocarbon dated in 1995 the  Kenyon  destruction
1562 BC + /- 36 years.
Gives a range  of  1525/1600 for  Jericho,s destruction.

Even more interesting
If you believe in Science in this case Radio Carbon dating
take the Thera/Santorini  destruction circa  1627/1600


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_eruption


deduct 40 years Exodus and 2 years preparation nearing Jericho
1627 - 42




 and you arrive
at  1585  BC for Jericho destruction.!!!!

Beautiful in the Kenyon/Bruinsma range !!!

As the Santorini/ Thera date of 1627/1600 has also  a range   there are more possiblilitys.
 1627 - 42  or 1600 - 42 .
and al between.


or

http://www.ana.gr/anaweb/user/showplain?maindoc=7093518&maindocimg=1564949&service=100

 by olive branch carbon 14

a date for Santorini /Thera eruption
1613 +/- 10 years



Well there are a lot of possibilitys then.

The most interesting thing is that the   bruinsma  reference in the Nation Master text ( wich is the Wikipedia text ) was surpressed( censure lol lol ) in later editions of Wiki lemma Jericho.

So indeed science as Carbon dating is can be in harmony with belief.

The old accusation that carbon dating has errors  and is contaminated ( see Rohl )

Well in all science there are errors
like


In medical science how many wrong diagnoses and  fatal mistakes in surgery

But we dont abolish medical science or surgery .

But enemys of C 14 want to abolish it  because it isnt 100 percent without errors .
Strange !!!

This is just an hypothesis there are many other possibilitys !

Turanclancath:)

[Sekhmet]

My goodness , I had no idea I was responding to such a knowledgeable and gifted elocutionist.  Speaking for myself, I am a much more simple individual having earned degrees in only two of the sciences, participated in just a few expeditions, and served for just a few years as a consultant on physical events that support biblical history.  Generally I avoid religious or mideast archaeological forums and bulletin boards like one of Moses' plagues but this one seemed interesting. 

And no, they are not my Hyksos, although I've often wondered about Eliakim.  About 1600 is simply where the chronology places the event.  From your response, I take it that you've never tried this approach before.  Now, please set your theories along with your misconceived ideas that I am out to prove any of my own aside.  Working only from the biblical records of the periods of subjugation and the reigns of kings and rules of judges, what numbers do you come up with?  Use your Bible and whatever other reference sources you might wish to employ as long as they are known, old enough to be valid, and available for reference by the rest of us.  I think you'll find this is an enjoyable and interesting study.  Take your time adding it all up.  I'll be glad to wait.

And regarding your reference to your age Granny, if it makes you more comfortable, simply call me Gramps.

Well DHL, I chose to diminish myself, I would not want to force a man of your knowledge, veiled education and background into doing what I enjoy.  I did as you suggested, only as the great granddaughter of a long line of Swiss Mennonite preachers and Bishops could do as a ten yr child  My family branch left the church, but not God to fight in the Civil War. 

I found the whole idea of your suggestion at the time entirely lacking in substance, impossible and totally Classical.  Who freed Joseph?  Your dearly protected chronology, can't even name the Pharaoh of Abraham, or Moses let alone Joseph. 

If it hadn't been for Velikovsky a few years later, I don't know what would have happened to me.  Your chronology had so discouraged me from Bible reading, church attending.  That I had started an in depth study of Native American religions, Hindu, Buddhism, and Islam.  I loved Islam because my father had brought home TDY Moslems since I was a five years old, the kindest of men to a little girl.  This was okay, because my family had plans for me to become a missionary in Africa.  My Lord called me back into Christianity and to another path, and I chose to obey it instead.

Can you name the son of the house of Israel, that married a daughter of Pharaoh? 1Chronicles 4:17? 

The work I resumed since the old empty nest began, can name each of them, and it accounts for population flows.  Who were the men that wanted Moses dead?  Exodus 7-12 I can name them, but only after you DHL.

DHL please, open your eyes as to what your insistence in Josephus and an ancient timeline doctored over the years is doing to modern people.  We walk by faith in trust in our Lord, but a real chronology with names, possible, probable dates helps in this day of such change.  We have seen homes built on some of the strongest foundations get swept away due to the storms our carelessness, or natural cycle has caused.  Knowing who, what, and the best possible time only strengthens our hold during these storms on the roots that manage to remain intact.

The harder your chronology press' the fewer want to hear it, because as I saw as a ten year old child it lacks authority, reality, and has no basics in scripture other than quoting were appropriate.  With no names, and dates that make history, a laughing stock.  While the poor in the field scholars are terrified of speaking up with what they know but can't speak of because it offends the Josephus, Africanus crowd. 

A child needs it elders to walk, but it grows into an adult that is expected to be able to answer the next child's questions.  It is time, to leave the things of childhood behind and walk as adults.  Learning the wonders our times have been given and using them for his glory.  Maybe you should prayerfully look into my work and let the Lord guide you as it appears you have a lot of stock in the old.

I have been as my father's daughter and then in my own right a public speaker since before I left elementary school.  I enjoy it. 

And no, they are not my Hyksos, although I've often wondered about Eliakim.

  Unfortunately they are your Hyksos as they are not escaping Hebrew slaves.  I do not understand your Elizkim reference if you could explain more.  Perhaps it might make the 4 Biblical references to these 4 people easier for me to understand.  The Lord willing, I be happy to attempt to help you sir.

Good day to you sir, yours and to all.

[DHL]

Hello Turinclancath.  The math works out to 1590 for the end of the Exodus but then I haven't worked in the time it took for the subjugation of the land by the Israelites.  I agree with David Down that the sojourn wasn't 430 years and while David doesn't provide an opinion on the actual number of years, I believe it was about half of that and this is what (shudder) Josephus (who after all was a first century Hebrew scholar) states as well.  This would place Joseph under Amenemhet IV.  This would make sense since his cartouche and therefore Joseph's seal is found at Kibroth Hattavah (and what is the RC determined date for this site?).  While this has led some to interpret Amenemhet IV as the Pharaoh of the Exodus, I rather believe that the seal may have been sufficiently venerated at the time that the Hebrews identified with it somewhat.  But then this is a personal belief and not even a theory.  I am a bit on the fence as to whether Joseph would have begun under Amenemhet III because of the Potipher (Ptawer) inscription and then continued as storemaster under Amenemhet IV or if the stories became confused over time and due to the cyclic droughts that were occurring at the time Joseph, Potipher, and other elements became merged.

I have added it all up before and come up with the same or nearly the same conclusion:  That the Exodus occurred much earlier than believed.

Concerning the opinion that this would make the Israelites Hyksos, I disagree.  There are several elements in the story of Joseph that indicates the opposite, not the least of which is that Joseph married the daughter of a priest of On.  The Israelites may have become associated with the Hyksos in the minds of later Pharoahs due to a Semitic background.

Going even further back and if few errors were made by either Hebraic or Egyptian chronologists and historians, Abraham may have been in Egypt under Intef II in the 11th dynasty.  At least that is what the numbers state though I'm little inclined to believe they're that accurate that far back. But then who knows?

Sekhmet, I am an O.O.F. and if you know what that means, you'll know I can't be baited or intimidated.  I proved all I needed to a long time ago and made plenty of mistakes that I learned from along the way.  Perhaps the most valued but hardest to learn was not to take myself or other experts too seriously.  I am simply here for the fun of a friendly discussion and simple speculation.  Any theory or source can be criticized and I am not who you apparently think I am.  I'm sorry if the "Classic" approach offends you, but isn't it time that it was examined again in light of recent RC, archaeological, geological, and geophysical observations?  I'm interested in any observations you may have that are of a constructive nature.

Over to you Turinclancath.

[turanclancath]

DHF good morning  what,s an O,O,F ?

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/OOF

Why not the full word  ?

Turanclancath and not Turinclancath  i,m not related to the Turin papyrus or Turin king list  lol lol.

 
yes and I also participate for fun,  friendley discussions,learning  and learning from each other  and history /culture/bible   some  of my many passions.

And not to be absolutely right .
i learn a lot in this and other Fora.

[Sekhmet]

Sekhmet, I am an O.O.F. and if you know what that means, you'll know I can't be baited or intimidated.  ...  Any theory or source can be criticized and I am not who you apparently think I am.  I'm sorry if the "Classic" approach offends you, but isn't it time that it was examined again in light of recent RC, archaeological, geological, and geophysical observations?  I'm interested in any observations you may have that are of a constructive nature.

Oh, DHL this old granny doesn’t think you are out of your mental abilities (facilities), perhaps out of focus a bit but not out for fun either.  My brother does not even know what I think, how can you?  I am here to share new information that even the most poorly educated person will be learning in a few years.  If not in books, then on T.V. 

Since you have not the slightest clue as to where I am in my work...your constructive nature needs better focusing if you or any other serious scholar wants to be a help to me.  And some here know I welcome it warmly.  You simply want to rehash your glory days fine, leave me to my own then with a bit of simple human respect.  Thank you sir.

NOW

You believe Josephus, okay so Vespasian is the Savior.  Mine is Christ.
You ignore Josephus when he states why historians write in Against Apion, The Antiquity of the Jews section 5:23.  I take it you consider the Assyrian sackings of Memphis and Thebes not very destructive.  That the Persian, and Greek antique, souvenir hunters were just harmless folks looking for a steal.  Do you think that of the Romans as well?

[DHL]

ello Turanclancath - I hope I've gotten your handle right now.

O.O.F. - Official Old, and you can substitute any number of descriptive nouns for the last word.  It's an acronym that simply means I've been around the block often enough to acquire a relatively thick skin, have developed an intolerance for arrogance, and have acquired a really acute dislike for those that attempt to draw me into argumentative debates such as genocide during the conquest of Canaan.  No law was ever written that I have to respond.

I quite agree with what you are saying regarding the dating of Jericho and the Santorini/Thera Events.  The dates as they are lining up are quite remarkable.  The problem with C14 is drift.  Once general drift is accounted for then one has regional which can be affected by local events.  And drift is variable, not linear so the charts are always being modified.  So much for the RC discussion.  If nothing else, C14 is a remarkable tool for verifying archaeological chronological models and even without the drift corrections provides a greater understanding of ancient events than we'd have without it.  Moving on.

I have just a few minor problems with the Joseph/Moses/Judges/Kings chronology that can make perhaps a 20 year or so difference.  We can discuss these but since we're simply scratching our curiosity, I really don't want to get drawn into an argument that one theory is superior to any other.  We would simply be looking at this one to see how well it fits, modifying it according to logic and checking to see how well other sources support it (does it tie in with Sumerian and Egyptian events?).  We can walk through the "classic" model and see what lines up and what doesn't.  If you're interested that is.

[ralfellIs]

And no, they are not my Hyksos, although I've often wondered about Eliakim.

I would have to disagree with you on that point.  There are too many similarities between the documented Hyksos Exodus and the biblcal Exodus for this to be merely coincidence.  They have to be talking about the same event  -  an event that must have been coincident with the eruption of Santorin?.


Both Exoduses include:

Storms and darkness for three days (Tempest stele - and Santorin?)
An ashfall (Moses is certain about this, and Santorini provides the answer)
A tsunami  (waters recede  -  again Santorini)
A people who wore earrings
A people who were circumcised
A people who wore curly sidelocks of hair
An Egyptianised people who would have been called Moses (Egyptian, 'son of')
A battle with the (Upper) Egyptian pharaoh
An exodus that started in Pi Ramesse  (Avaris)
Much looting of the (Upper) Egyptians  (the Torah is clear on this, as is the Tempest stele)
An exodus that numbered many hundreds of thousands  (how many times does this happen in this region)
The giving of gold, oil and cloth  (Tempest stele and the tabernacle episode)
A people who could have destroyed Jericho
A people who fled to Jerusalem  (Manetho)

It sounds like the same exodus to me. 


All that needs to be done, to make them the same, is for the Hyksos exodus (reign of Pharaoh Ahmose I) to be realigned with whatever date you care to give to the Santorini eruption   -  less say 25 years for the political situation to fester.  Let us say 1600 BC for cash, assuming a 1625 date for Santorini.  That is as close to the classical date for the reign of Ahmose I as one needs to get  -  I am sure the classical date for the 18th dynasty could be 25 years adrift in this early era.






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[turanclancath]

That the Hebrews were part of the many Hyksos tribes/peoples/ coallition is already an old theory.

The Hyksos were a confederation after all with also subjected tribes who were forced in the confederation.
they had many little kingdoms in Egypt.

Compare the situation of the Hyksos confederation with the Huns of Atilla and the troops of Djengis Khan etc.

Or with the  berber  army of Spain in 732 when Charles Martel saved Europe in the battle of Poitiers .
Actually most of the  berber troops  were subjected Christians from Spain.

Only a minority of Atilla,s troops were Huns the rest were subjected German tribes.

German tribes of the Romans  like the Visigoths and subjected Germans  of Atilla like the Ostrogoths  fought in451 against each other and the Romans saved Europe from the Asians.

So that the Hebrews were part of the multi nations Hyksos is not impossible.
turanclancath

[ralfellIs]

So that the Hebrews were part of the multi nations Hyksos is not impossible.
turanclancath

Indeed.

But this does mean that we appear to have a confluence of  --  the eruption of Thera, the exodus of the Hyksos, and the writing of the Torah to detail all of these events.  This also implies that the Israelites were more Egyptianised than currently assumed, and may have worshipped the Egyptian pantheon.


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[turanclancath]

Ralf what do you think of the theorys of David Rohl?

Do they fit in your theorys?
Turanclancath:)

[ralfellIs]

>> Ralf what do you think of the theorys of David Rohl?

I like Rohl's books.  Well researched.  But I think he is wrong in both cases.


Chronology:
I see no reason to adjust the chronology. This is based upon faulty reasoning, because he could not find Solomon in the record.  The standard chronology is more or less correct, as it ties in quite nicely with the eruption of Thera (Ahmose and Thera). 

So how does this equate to biblical history?  Well, there were two exoduses, as Manetho says.  The first was the Hyksos exodus, which equates to the battle between Jacob and Esau (Josephus says this was a military engagement).  As it happens, one of the last Hyksos pharaohs was called Jacoba. 

Then there was the Akhenaton exodus, which is the 1300 BC event. Akhenaton's brother was called Moses, and the king forced his people to make mud bricks.

So what happened to Solomon?  Well, we are looking for a king associated with a Star and a City  -  and that was Psusennes, or Pasebakhainnut  (My Star Rises in the City).  This was Solomon, and his capital city was not Zion, but Zoan.  And the date is exactly the same as the standard chronology.



Location of Eden.
Ge 2:10 says:
And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.

There is only one river in the East that runs through a garden oasis and then splits into four branches, and that is the Nile.



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[notopri]

Your posting about that   Dame Kathleen Kenyon  was correct in dating the fall of Jericho   circa  1550 BC did me very good.

She was not correct

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/01/30/Jericho-Does-the-Evidence-Disprove-or-Prove-the-Bible.aspx

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/08/07/Carbon-14-Dating-at-Jericho.aspx

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/06/09/The-Walls-of-Jericho.aspx

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/05/01/Did-the-Israelites-Conquer-Jericho-A-New-Look-at-the-Archaeological-Evidence.aspx

(Ignore the annoying voice over.)

Remember Kenyon never published her work or conclusions concerning Jericho.

[ralfellIs]

Your posting about that   Dame Kathleen Kenyon  was correct in dating the fall of Jericho   circa  1550 BC did me very good.

She was not correct (regards date of Jericho)

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2009/01/30/Jericho-Does-the-Evidence-Disprove-or-Prove-the-Bible.aspx

Remember that if the Israelites were the Hyksos, then Kathleen Kenyon WAS right in her 1550 BC date for the destruction of Jericho.


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[notopri]

Remember that if the Israelites were the Hyksos, then Kathleen Kenyon WAS right in her 1550 BC date for the destruction of Jericho.

I do not agree with the idea that the Israelites were the Hyksos. It just doesn't fit. The Hyksos were driven out of Egypt, the Israelites left with permission.

I lean toward the idea that the Amalekites, (sp? if that is the correct name of the people the Israelites fought in Sinai), as being the Hyksos. It would fit

Manetho's account of the appearance of the Hyksos in Egypt calls it an armed invasion by a horde of foreign barbarians who met little resistance and who subdued the country by military force

Pharoah and the army were destroyed hence little resistance. The Israelites were there when the Egyptians had full power and left when they had full power thus they would not be able to over-throw the Egypian government with little resistance.

the quote came from:  open-encyclopedia.com  Hyksos

[ralfellIs]

>>>I do not agree with the idea that the Israelites were
>>>the Hyksos. It just doesn't fit. The Hyksos were driven
>>>out of Egypt, the Israelites left with permission.


Errm  -  I think you will find that the Torah says that Israelites were chased out of Egypt by the Egyptian army, which got caught up in the tsunami caused by the eruption of Thera.  There WAS a military engagement between the Israelites and the (Upper) Egyptians.

Besides, the Tempest stele of Ahmose I does imply that there was a treaty made between the Hyksos and the Upper Egyptians, which included the obligation to leave the country (just as the Toraj says).  It would appear that the wealth used to make the Tabernacle and the Ark were given as an inducement for the Hyksos-Israelites to leave the country, and the Tempest stele includes direct quotes from the Book of Exodus.


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