Actual 'Exodus' the Hyksos story?

[Bud]

Hi, Folks!

I just saw this message, which made me decide to join in:

" I would wish all fundie Christians would boycott BAR, that should raise the average IQ of posters by 50 points. The fact is archaeology does not always support the Biblical text. If you can't understand that, you really need to go to some nice Jesus forum where they make up what they want and diss science."

Having a high IQ and great education m'self, these are my sentiments exactly.

RE: Pertinent stuff - Could you guys please direct me to discussions of whether or not the so-called Exodus was a remnant of the exodus of the Hyksos c. 1550 BCE.  I find it most interesting that the Egyptian records are virtually silent regarding ______Moses and his batch of Hebrews.  I say ______Moses because its only half an Egyptian name indicating that "Deity X" is born in that person or said person is "Born Of" said deity.  I have to wonder why the first part of this guys name was expunged . . . or was he made up out of whole cloth to give a 'local' perspective to the Hyksos story?

Regards,
Bud

[Admin1]

I don't find any articles in the BAR archives, but I do see that the net abounds with discussions about this possible connection.  Check a few of them out here:

http://www.google.com/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&=&q=exodus+hyksos&aq=0&oq=exodus+hyk&aqi=g1

[Bud]

Hey, thanks!

One of these Googled sites had a rather interesting-but-lengthy treatise from the Black perspective.  It's at:
http://destee.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17985

Obviously, the Hyksos were Horse-and-Chariot people.  These types simply are not typical of nomadic Semitic tribes.  If one were to look at the map at:
  http://www.specialtyinterests.net/map_middle_east.html
one would be hard-pressed to see such a source-people much farther south than Carcamesh.  Also see:
http://www.livius.org/a/1/maps/mitanni_map.gif

At: http://www.kcdme.com/page54.html
The text reads: "By the beginning of the 16th century BC , if not earlier , the Mitannians , an Indo-Aryan element,  settled  in  the Hurri country as a ruling aristocracy . They finished by  adopting the Hurrite language , but they brought the Hurrians the horse, the equestrian training, the use of the horse chariot for warfare and its vocabulary . . . "

Apparently these people, whomever they were, were sufficently warlike to possess such military hardware as chariots, etc. as they have been described.  One has to wonder why Dynastic Egyptian Pharoahs - weak though they may be - allowed such an armed-to-the-teeth bunch simply drift into their territory . . . UNLESS of course they felt they needed mercenaries to bolster their admitedly-weak Egyptian army.  Mercenaries from the Carcamesh area?  Who'd a thunk it!

I don't wish to get dragged into the Aryan Nations crapola, but peoples from the Hurrian area were not necessarily Semitic.  After all, the name given the Hyksos meant "Rulers of Foreign Lands" rather than "Shepherd Kings" as erroneously stated a good while ago. 

This, of course, would help explain how the Hyksos so readily integrated into the not-particularly-Semitic Egyptian society.  All they had to do was to adopt the Egyptian deities like "Set" as a version of their previous deities.  Naturally, the old-guard Egyptian dynasty descendents under Ahmose I really didn't care to be usurped by the mercenaries and finally counter-attacked, sending the Hyksos packing along with all their military hardware (also described).

So, what about Moses and the gang?  Taking the tale as a whole, it's difficult to cram them in anywhere in Egyptian history, except as toadies to the Hyksos.  It's rather difficult to account for Moses doing all this stuff at 80-plus years of age.  What date would one give for the dude's birth, anyway?  Maybe make him the adopted son of Hatshepsut and brother of Thotmes III?  That's a hard sell!  Make him Akenahten's older brother?  That puts him way late in the time-line.

Inasmuch as the OT had contributors from at least four different ideological sources, my guess is that the Yahwist scribes did more than a little fictionalizing.

Regards,

[turanclancath]

 Quote from Bud

Having a high IQ and great education m'self, these are my sentiments exactly.

---------------------------------

Interesting Bud show your cards please
I myself ( practicising Humilitas  a Classical  and Religious Virtue  by the way )
 i have an   university degree in History
and teached many years at university.
So I hope you have at least a Dr degree ?

By the way to help my students i followed a postdoc  study for remedial teaching.
there i learned that most people even superb professors have a IQ  between 80/125.
If you dont develop it it stays low if you develop it you can make a dollar  from a simple dime

one of the reasons many prisoners  talked to themsellves  etc during their Siberian imprisonment by the communists 
( gulag archipel ) to let their IQ not detoriate.
without exercise an even high IQ becomes rusty.

but I learned also that IQ is  a combination of many factors visual   performal etc etc etc
So see the Raven( an Iq  mesure  method .)

For instance with arimethics i would score very low  and with language very high.


turanclancath

[turanclancath]

 another quote from Bud

This, of course, would help explain how the Hyksos so readily integrated into the not-particularly-Semitic Egyptian society
----------------------------

This is a hypothesis about the integration.
many  learned and not so learned: writers say they werent integrated( perhaps they thought or hoped  so )
and hated by the Egyptians.

typical imago/ identity problem: in modern terms , how does the company see itself and how the public sees it 
 turanclancath

[LiaDee]

Hi Bud,
"RE: Could you guys please direct me to discussions of whether or not the so-called Exodus was a remnant of the exodus of the Hyksos c. 1550 BCE. "

Well, I'm not a guy, but may I join in?

"I find it most interesting that the Egyptian records are virtually silent regarding ______Moses and his batch of Hebrews."

Please visit my posting 'Which Prophet lived During Which Pharaoh' re: what I believe Moses'... Hebrew...name was....but, as to his other Egyptrian titles:

(You said)" ______Moses because its only half an Egyptian name indicating that "Deity X" is born in that person or said person is "Born Of" said deity."

Over-all a good observation: Even the name (title) that Joseph was given "Dj/Zeph 'nath-PAa-neaH" seems to contain 'Anath', the Canaanite goddess; whose name simply meant "Answer" (which Joseph did, when he told the Pharaoh what his dream meant). 
As to Moses, (according to the mathematical 'begat dating' within the Scriptures, which can be used as a baseline as it overlaps with history....) Moses was given his name by the wife (and sister) of Ahmose.  He was 'given life; granted favor' under Ahmose. Therefore, Moses was and "Ahmose-Ankh" Perhaps he was the son, pictured on the Masara portrait, written in Ahmose's 18th year--BTW that should read: "18th year of life"--since it doesn't picture Amenhotep I. Mysteriously Ahmose-Ankh (although pictured as a son of Ahmose and Ahmose-Nefertari) did not give the latter the title 'god's mother'...nor was that title written of her on the 3rd pylon of Karnak...Not until Amenhotep I was born did she carry that title.
...therefore, that son (Ahmose-Ankh) was not the 'heir apparent', as was the later born: Djoserkare-Amenhotep I.
But, check out who Manetho-through-Josephus places BETWEEN Ahmose and Amenhotep I: "C-Hebron"."C" (Chet in Hebrew) means 'companion; friend associate'...According to the Biblical timeline, Moses was certainly that to Ahmose (just six years his junior) + "Hebron" (was the land of Abraham, burial place of Isaac and Jacob and...and...and...)
Anyway, as to the Hyksos story having to do with the Hebrews' story; two separate groups, two separate incidents; two separate "Tetmosis"....
'Tetmesut'  was Ahmose's Nebty title; Manetho said was 'Tetmosis drove the (Hyksos) out'. Later, the HEbrew Exodus- under another Thutmose (the I).
These two Canaanite groups are separate and separated by nearly 70 years. The Hebrews in the late 17th dyn. were probably more aligned with the Egyptian Nomarchs who were 'rising in Thebes' (despite the two, early 18th dyn., edicts that targeted their 1st born male babies.)
The Hyksos were the Hebrew's enemies-of-old: Hyc-Sos;  rulers of hill countries, the kings-of-shepherds. My guess is that many Hyksos were Amorite warriors (the RA-Meosses; sons-of-Re, warrior tie-in with Avaris, tel-el D'Aba; the city of their ancestors!)
The Hebrews (between the 13th-18th dyn) suffered more, year-for-year under Hyksos rule than they did under the Egyptians! Not only timewise, but the Hyksos ruled Egypt from near and within their deeded Goshen land!
Off hand, I know of a few texts which seperate these groups (and if one assumes the Hebrews are 'Apiru or 'Ibri there are many more texts)-- Sinuhe separated various tribes of the Levant from Hyksos. Hatshepsut spoke of vagabonds (in the midst of Hyksos), then there is a deleted portion of an Ahmose-Ibana writing, as well...the first part talked about the Hyksos and the destroyed portion talked about another group that was subdued by Ahmose--it's assumed they were not Hyksos since the first part was not defaced.
(Not that any of these groups were Hebrews but it shows that the ancient Egyptians recognized a distinction between the groups...and that original distinction for the Hebrews came early-on when Abraham entered the land during the famine of his day ('begats' ca. 2109 BC)
Abraham-- and the other Levantine shepherds-- had entered the Delta during that time. He stayed awhile and then headed to Hebron, founding it. Shortly thereafter Avaris was 'founded' (seven years after Hebron: Nu. 13:22)  Scripture describes how he warred and drove more kings out of Canaan. Certainly not all 'kings of shepherds' were Hyksos but the Hyksos shepherd-kings weren't Hebrews. Although some of the Hebrews were shepherds, their faith separated them from the Seth worshipping Avaris dwelling 'Amu and their Hyksos kings.

Regards,
Lia

[Sekhmet]

 

I say ______Moses because its only half an Egyptian name indicating that "Deity X" is born in that person or said person is "Born Of" said deity.  I have to wonder why the first part of this guys name was expunged . . .[/Bud]

A possible reason being is that Pharaoh daughter found him in the Nile.  Now being the son, he inherited the right to the throne of her father.  She knew he was a forbidden Hebrew child and a theolgical name would be an insult to his real family. 

Perhaps the theological name was dropped when with his Hebrew family. 

Egyptians by the way were great ones for nick names so Moses could have been the nickname of say Djehutirekh his real name?  If it was me I would prefer Moses to Djehuirekh.  Wouldn't you?  Have a nice day.

[turanclancath]

A big welcome back Lady Sekhmet .
here a flower to celebrate your return in the Forum.

Turanclancath.

[turanclancath]

http://home-3.tiscali.nl/~meester7/engmoses.html

just for information.

Rohls theory   about Hyksos etc

( i  absolutely  dont agree with Rohl by the way  !!!! )

Turanclancath:)

[Sekhmet]

Why thank you for the flower my dear Sir Turanclancath    In some ways it is nice to be back, in others, I see the red my Father dreads in me

The only thing I tend to agree with David Rohl is his correlation of names from the Amarna Letters and 2nd Samuel.  By very different methods, we both arrived at the United Kingdom in the 18th Dynasty.  I found that agreement to be cool.

What a shame that so much of the Pre, Early, and Old Kingdom documentation has been lost to us nosey moderns.  It is comparable to only getting to read the last two books of Colleen McCullough’s First Man in Rome series. 

Egypt has a very long history, as do the Semitic people dating back into the Northern Mesopotamia to the early 3rd (if not earlier) millennium B.C. according to (Saggs 2000:30; Stiebing 2003:37-38; Crawford 1991: 20-21).

As a mere, human being I think it is hubris to believe Abraham, and his kin had to wait until the Middle Kingdom of Egypt or later before breaking off from their kin in Mesopotamia. 

This hubris is based on first the Greek genius Eratosthenes wanting to out do the chronologies of Manetho, and Berossus, using Greek science.  His chronology got all the back to the 1st Olympiad in 776 B.C.  The Roman Marcus Terentio Varro agreed with Eratosthenes thereby censuring the ancient histories of Egypt and Mesopotamia.  Then we got Sextus Julius Africanus’ to give us a history of almost six thousand years from the birth of Christ.  His millennialism only gave the ancient world until 501 (not the jeans) for the End Times.

Then reprieve!  No the Septuagint, like the works of Manetho, and Berossus were corrupted they gave a far too old of earth history!  The Hebrew Texts came out and suddenly the ancient world was missing two thousand years!  The Christian Church quickly grabbed them for the future.  Archbishop James Ussher with his math brain took the chronology, those 2,000 extra years and declared that the End Times were in October 1996.  Right!  What are you folks really scared of theology, religion, their god, or your parents?

I can go on; the real problem is most scholars just keep reading the same old stuff without getting anything new or real.  "Edited because of my usage of worms."

As for who were the real Hyksos?  They were the natives of the land along with the mixed blood children of Esau, his Canaanite and Hittite wives not to mention his cousin wife of Ishmael (Genesis 28:9).  Upon liberation from Egypt, the Hebrews drove their cousins into the depopulated Delta.  Maybe even the children of Abraham’s third concubine although I prefer to think of them as the Akkadians, returning to their father’s homeland and making trouble.

Have a great day my dear friend Sir Turanclancath and you all of yours.

[DHL]

Quote from Bud

Having a high IQ and great education m'self, these are my sentiments exactly.

Bud, as a scientist myself, I must observe that both the Bible and archaeology should be regarded based on their own proofs and merits.  However... if you have the ambition, the time, and don't just want to talk about it, I'd recommend that you obtain a copy of The Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.  With that in hand along with your Bible, not only can you actually work out the actual dates, but can actually detect where Josephus went wrong (never rely on only one data source).  Oh yes, make certain that you start with a definite and well researched date and work back.  My favorite is the date for the conquest of Judah and subsequent exile to Babylon which is generally accepted as 605 BC.   Everything is there for you to work out the chronology from the time that Jacob entered Egypt through the Exodus, Judges, and Kings. One other tip isa to only work with the kings of Judah.  Trying to correlate both Judah and Israel on the first attempt adds to the difficulty and is not necessary.  There are some surprises in the results.  For one that Kenyon was right to begin with.  For another, when you are able to derive the correct dates, you will find that Joseph and at least one of his contemporaries are in evidence in the established Egyptian chronology.  And this is without having to distort Egyptian history.

Science (archaeology) is not the enemy.  Sloth, fear (of contradiction), and preconception are.

[Sekhmet]

Quote from Bud

Having a high IQ and great education m'self, these are my sentiments exactly.

Bud, as a scientist myself, I must observe that both the Bible and archaeology should be regarded based on their own proofs and merits.  However... if you have the ambition, the time, and don't just want to talk about it, I'd recommend that you obtain a copy of The Antiquities of the Jews by Josephus.  With that in hand along with your Bible, not only can you actually work out the actual dates, but can actually detect where Josephus went wrong (never rely on only one data source).  Oh yes, make certain that you start with a definite and well researched date and work back.  My favorite is the date for the conquest of Judah and subsequent exile to Babylon which is generally accepted as 605 BC.   Everything is there for you to work out the chronology from the time that Jacob entered Egypt through the Exodus, Judges, and Kings. One other tip isa to only work with the kings of Judah.  Trying to correlate both Judah and Israel on the first attempt adds to the difficulty and is not necessary.  There are some surprises in the results.  For one that Kenyon was right to begin with.  For another, when you are able to derive the correct dates, you will find that Joseph and at least one of his contemporaries are in evidence in the established Egyptian chronology.  And this is without having to distort Egyptian history.

Science (archaeology) is not the enemy.  Sloth, fear (of contradiction), and preconception are.

Hello DHL and welcome

I agree with most of what you say, but about Josephus and his history I just cannot agree. 

However, I do like him for pushing that Greek/Roman for sure and positive real history.  Starting date back a couple of millenniums from 776 BCE (anything before that was just possible, or a myth to them).  He did push history back to 2184 B.C.E where he placed his Exodus.  (Josephus AgAp 1.1.16 @ 104).  By the way did you know that Castor of Rhodes, working on the ancientness of his Greek heritage determined the first kings of Greece and of Assyria shared the same regale year of 2123 B.C.E.  ( I can provide you a source on Castor, if you would like, I am just getting tired now.  Please feel free to ask)

Anyway, I wanted to say hi DHL and let you know Josephus is not a major source in my work.  I use him mostly to demonstrate just how limited Western thought was before Greece and Rome's inclusion into the literate and ancient world of the Orient. 

[DHL]

Actually Sekmet, I was simply trying to point out that in order to work out a timeline one must do the math.  And I think that I did point out that Josephus made detectable mistakes.  Finding these is half the fun.  If we can get some individuals to actually do the math then we can begin a discussion that might accomplish something.  The value of discussion then would be honing the values.  That is if some are willing to discard preconceived notions.

Regarding Josephus' 2123 date for the start of the Exodus, I just can't agree with that.  I've worked it out several times using different approaches and it comes out to 1600 BC plus or minus a few years.  I will agree with his statement that the tribes were in Egypt 215 years as this is supported elsewhere.  It also places Joseph in the 12th dynasty when a cycle of droughts were recorded.

[Sekhmet]

Actually Sekmet, I was simply trying to point out that in order to work out a timeline one must do the math.  And I think that I did point out that Josephus made detectable mistakes.  Finding these is half the fun.  If we can get some individuals to actually do the math then we can begin a discussion that might accomplish something.  The value of discussion then would be honing the values.  That is if some are willing to discard preconceived notions.

Regarding Josephus' 2123 date for the start of the Exodus, I just can't agree with that.  I've worked it out several times using different approaches and it comes out to 1600 BC plus or minus a few years.  I will agree with his statement that the tribes were in Egypt 215 years as this is supported elsewhere.  It also places Joseph in the 12th dynasty when a cycle of droughts were recorded.

Interesting DHL, thank you however, math at the time of my post wasn't of concern.  To me the relience on Josephus was, he has his uses but....  With the work by scholars such as Africanus, Eusebuis, Annianus, Bar Hebraeus, al-Biruni, Castor of Rhodes, Cedrenus, Cephalion,... I can continue I know and have studied just about all of the ancient chronographers including St. Jerome, Lightfoot, and Archbishop James Ussher.  Including the founding fathers of Archaeology, Egyptology, and Assyriology.  Josephus isn't as important today as in the Dark Ages, or early stages of Christianity.

My dear DHL, because I make no claims to an excellent education does not mean I haven't one.  Just because I diminish myself by calling myself Granny doesn't mean that is all I am.  Having been raised in the military, and with Japanese as my first but not mother language DHL sometimes my English is off.  I do read an awful lot of translated ancient documents so there is my source of poor educational expressions from time to time.  Then sometimes like all, I get tired and I have to admit like many grandparents forgetful at times.  So, please forgive me for being humble, and using the sword to the best of my abilities.
NOW
Your 1600 exodus originates with Manetho insistence that the "Shepard Kings" aka Hyksos were the Judeans on Egypt's northeastern boarder ancestors.  They were not. 
The destruction of Canaan/Palestine from that time dates to the expansion of both Hittite, and the Mitannian Kingdoms.  That were stopped by the sudden influx of Eastern Island Greeks, post Theran erruption, to join their fellow Greeks that had colonized the Levant since the 4th millennium.  Please see P.Y. Forsyth Thera in the Bronze Age page 14.

Your Hyksos are simply displaced Canaanites fleeing to their ancient Friend Egypt as they had since prehistory during Levant doughts.  Avaris began ca. 1990, as a refuge for the displaced people of the real exodus that began at the collapse of the Old Kingdom.  Like a 3rd century Greek could conceive of a history that ancient. 

Could you please tell us of the population flow from your preferred time?  Where did the displaced people from the escaped Hebrew slaves conquest go?
Having traveled so much, and seen so many displaced people in my life I wonder about that.  Please relieve old granny's concern about this.  Don't forget to account for the increase population of the Hebrews in your population flow.  Thank you in advance sir.  Manetho, Josephus didn't include population flows in their work few of the ancients did.

I see it as Manetho's attempt to bring real history down enough for a student of Aristotle, to understand the danger these Judean hills presented historically for his new Greek master.  If not the Asians themselves at least their God.  You do know, that he taught that if you were not Greek, you were not fit to be a free being.  Asians in particularly were fit only to be slaves.  So Manetho, would have to be very gentle dealing with the Ptolemys.

What about the inscription of Pharaoh Ptolemy V Epiptanes that credits Pharaoh Djoser, and Imhotep with saving Egypt from seven years of famine.  Seven lean famine years versus several cycles what matches scripture better.  Or are you claiming Pharaoh Ptolemy was lying, spending all that money, time and labor on a lie way down in Upper Egypt. 

Are you aware sir, of the famines of the First, Second, and Third Dynasties?

Again welcome to the board.  I am looking forward to your explanations.
Yes, math is needed in almost all chronology work mainly because the Greeks mostly the Romans demand of a short earth history and the need to slash 2000 years of history off of Manetho, Berossus, and finally in the end the Septuagint.

Instead of Josephus try some Wilkinson, Akkermans, Schwartz, Assmann, Beckman, Cline they are
modern and have access to the best and complete knowledge.  You can even ask humble old granny who prefers being as plain as possible and humble; exulting others and always her Lord.

That is if some are willing to discard preconceived notions.

  Oh, yes sir, only I have found in my life so few do.
Good day sir, to you, yours and to all.

[DHL]

My goodness , I had no idea I was responding to such a knowledgeable and gifted elocutionist.  Speaking for myself, I am a much more simple individual having earned degrees in only two of the sciences, participated in just a few expeditions, and served for just a few years as a consultant on physical events that support biblical history.  Generally I avoid religious or mideast archaeological forums and bulletin boards like one of Moses' plagues but this one seemed interesting. 

And no, they are not my Hyksos, although I've often wondered about Eliakim.  About 1600 is simply where the chronology places the event.  From your response, I take it that you've never tried this approach before.  Now, please set your theories along with your misconceived ideas that I am out to prove any of my own aside.  Working only from the biblical records of the periods of subjugation and the reigns of kings and rules of judges, what numbers do you come up with?  Use your Bible and whatever other reference sources you might wish to employ as long as they are known, old enough to be valid, and available for reference by the rest of us.  I think you'll find this is an enjoyable and interesting study.  Take your time adding it all up.  I'll be glad to wait.

And regarding your reference to your age Granny, if it makes you more comfortable, simply call me Gramps.