To read a text literal or not

[Dr. Steven Collins]

EZWRITER:
Anson R. and I have discussed these issues, and he does now agree with me on the rather static location of the Kikkar. So, key biblical geographers are moving in that direction. We do differ on our approach to the chronology, but we both agree that what we're dealing with when it comes to geography isn't affected at all by the date of composition or the chronological placement of the stories. When I saw Anson at ASOR last November, the first thing he said to me was in reference to the location of the Kikkar. I got a big smile out of it. Great guy! But I'll let him speak for himself if he wants to.
One must be careful when you say that sites like Megiddo, Hazor, Lachish, etc. are identified by some kind of textual support. They are not. They're identified based on the same kind of geographical material from the biblical text that one would use to find Sodom. There are more than twice as many geo-indicators for Sodom in the biblical text than there are for any of the sites you've mentioned. None have in situ inscriptional evidence (only Ekron has that). A good geographical methodology works with known quantities that often allow us to triangulate to unknown quantities in the text. People can "kick against the goads" all they want about it, but the location of the Kikkar of the Jordan River is pretty much a no-brainer.
I did some detailed discussion on this in the Tall el-Hammam threads. You should find those and read them carefully. I haven't encountered a single scholar who could argue against my placement of the Kikkar on textual grounds. And believe me, I've interacted with practically all of them that care about the issue.
I urge people to start entirely from scratch (as I did), and simply let the evidence take them where it will. Wherever that is, I hope they have a blessed life.

SC

[turanclancath]

Out of curiosity ( dont forget i,m   a biblical dilletant ) i looked for professor Anselm Rainey ( didnt know the name or publications ) and found this

Department of Archaeology - Prof. Anson Rainey

turanclancath

[eliyahu hanavi]

Out of curiosity ( dont forget i,m   a biblical dilletant ) i looked for professor Anselm Rainey ( didnt know the name or publications ) and found this

Department of Archaeology - Prof. Anson Rainey

turanclancath

Thank you Turan! I can only utter an ever so humble "Wow!" Cheers!

[Elijah]

This thread is about perspective of Sodom, and that of questioning Abram as rewarded with long life.

I agree that I find it difficult to beleive that Abraham lived such a long life. The concept presented in this thread is that to live obedient like Abram leads to the long 175-year life. I do not see this at all. It totally fails me. Perhaps you think me beligerent to think people can live so long. But here is where you are surprised that I feel bad that Abram lived so short, unrewarded with long life.

To understand this I must present the environment, hopefully you not thinking I am my usual wordy self. Abram was obedient in Ur until it cost him, until it caused him to suffer from obeying false-science. One example I beleive is that a wife's flow of blood is the life of the blood watering the field, and so the monthly hour by moon to have a child. It is not only the least likely time to get pregnant but one that may result in infections and inflammation if we are to beleive that Adam was not created with an unclean foreskin but a clean one; (it is false science to believe he had no foreskin, or that all men are unclean if they have a foreskin), and so the only relaity left is that Abram was unclean in his foreskin because of whatever false-science had been formed in the city Ur.

Expand this to every false science you can prove of Ur that Abram would in anger abandon (which are many, lunar and Venus) and my favorite that of Jupiter. Though Jupiter is the same Julian date every 83 years for 7 orbits, it is a very close same week every 12 years until it makes that sudden leap losing a year. Because of the math 73x 360 days = 72x 365 days, you can see that 84 calendar years of 360 days will fall in 83 years. It takes 426 years to equal 432 calendar years (36x 12 calendar years), but the 36 orbits of Jupiter is 427 years. This means that if your faith tells you that Abram deserted in 427 years and disowned Ur as headed to destruction, then he did so when he saw Jupiter (Jova) was not the calendar Ur said it was of 360 days. It takes that 427 years to be one year off. (Flood 2370-1943 BC)

As such, the astronomy Egypt had prior to Abram had built pyramids so that the only astronomy that Josephus can be correct about being from Abram and found in 12th dynasty Egypt would be the 25-year lunar calendar. Josephus exagerates and says all astronomy is from Abram. Being 75-76 unveils the difference between 3x 25 and 4x 19 years (more error for Abram to oppose). The name Nisan easily comes from the Isan dynasty (king Ishbi-Erra) 2018-2017 BC in the year of Abram's birth. The difference of Egyptian 12th dynasty 1991 BC, and Shulgi (1991-1943 BC), unveiling AmarSin as AmarPal (1943-1934 BC with his attacking Sodom in 1936 BC) all is supported by calendar changes that would cause the 48-year shift mistaking 12th dynasty 1943 BC as being 1991 BC. Thus Sodom was destroyed in the year 1919-1918 BC, and the July 18th sothic date and full moon gravitational pull on the deepest fault of the continental earth. Sothis has since been affiliated as a Volcanic flame star. The main concept of Sodom is the art of prediction by knowing the real science as GOD, and then predicting who will survive based on atitudes (morals).

The concept of Abram rewarded with life only comes from his living longer than others born the same year. In reality, the scripture says he was very happy and satisfied at death, but this would seem to refer that for a life that gave him nothing until so great a time as 75 years, that he was then rewarded after that, with enough of what he wanted, and expected. Long life is not included. Eber his great great father was 460 when Abram died in 1843 BC. How can a person die during the centuries that the gods (parents) were still alive and with slow aging, and feel satisfied. It is therefore clear he excepted his short cut-off life as blessed with good things to aquire during your short life. (Genesis 25:8 )

Consider now his son Isaac, with his half brother 14 years older who dies at 137 when Isaac is 123, so apparently 14 years later blind at 137 he is ready to die and blesses his twins who are 77, one a virgin, the other married 37 years. He does not know he will live to be 180 to the year his grandson Joseph is appointed by Pharaoh. Again the man is said to say he is satisfied with the short life.... does not say this satisfaction is because 180 is long. It is long only in that others average 137. (Genesis 35:29 )

(Genesis 47:9) Jacob dies at 147 in Egypt and so at 130 he says this fricken life was miserable. Indeed Abram's monogamy with Sarai was broken with Hagar, yet the sin was turned to blessing by her womb losing infection and inflammation during 14 years of Abram's abstinence with his unclean foreskin. Isaac never broke monogamy; but Jacob was tricked, tricked by Laban for Leah, tricked by Rachel into having a 3rd (no doubt she used Abram's Hagar as an example), and then a 4th. (Nothing in scripture says that Ishmael's 12 sons were anything but from one wife; it is unknown, just as it is unknown how many of Noah's children died in the Flood.) Because i study calendar, and time, and the hope to gain long life back, i catch these words and feelings that others have. So you see I do not see where I have gained the reward these men have gained, and I do know none of them felt it was long life.

[turanclancath]

    A copy/paste   but  interesting about reading a text, interpretation, source criticism (  obligatory  for me as a  academic historian ) and overinterpretation
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Megiddo_(15th_century_BC)

Yes Eliah.
Agree completely.

For instance compare Wiki in English about the Battle of Megiddo by Thutmoses III 1457  with the  Dutch, German, French , Italian and Spanish wiki about this.

Just click on the left column  Francais or Deutsch etc.

Only in the English ( American I guess  ) you see that Thut.3 had an light  cavalry of mounted archers known as haibwr
i copy /paste it here.

:

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With his infantry and the light cavalry of mounted bowmen known as haibrw or the horsemen going by the side of the mountains to take out any scouts that might be posted and leaving the road to the main force of chariots he moved in quickly

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in the other Wiki.s  no ( because the Assyrians started with this  much later .)

In the sources  no ,niente  , only that  horse had to walk after horse on the narrow  path.


see sources in translation

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/An_Account_of_the_Battle_of_Megiddo

and

http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/texts/the_battle_of_megiddo.htm




in military literature you read  that the Hyksos introduced the composite bow and war chariot   and that the bowmen were standing in the chariots.
the word for this kind of soldiers was haibwr ( interpreted as Habiru  etc ).

and an army on march had the chariots in bagage trains so only at the verge of battle they were put together.
So indeed horse after horse and nop mounted archers on horse back.
yes in the chariots thats ok

 After all This !!! is my trade as an historian lecuring  at university.
The ars interpretandi and source criticism.!!!!

   and how dangerous it is to read in sources what isnt there.

 therefore I think I copy/paste it also in your  How to read a text.
Because Source Criticism intern/extern  is very important.
By the way in the Middle Ages ( my period by  university training )
there were at least 5 ways of reading/interpretation of  a bible text.
Litteral , symbolic  etc.

The Song of Songs ( Shier ha Sjierim)
is an exellent   model for demonstrating his.

Bu th that is another posting
 
 
« Last Edit: Today at 09:33 AM by turanclancath »  Report to moderator    80.126.7.138 

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Turanclancath/aka Don Turan

Let the 4 Queens rule the World.
You reign from here to Eternity.
Queen of Queens,Empress of Empresses.
 
 
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[Elijah]

Well to reiterate, Abram lived 175, he was old and satisfied, but not old and rewared with years. His reward was all that he achieved from 75 until Isaac married at 40 when Abram was 140 three years after Sarah's death (127 when Abram was 137).

The point is not he gained long life, but rather his accomplishment for God came in due time despite his short life of 175 when others of 460 were still alive. It is difficult to see this when chronology is falsely stretched out making these parental gods dead 400 years before Abram, who then looks as if he was blessed with long life amongst those living 137. However, it is so easy to forget his father lived 205 and claim it was 145 so as to ignore that Nahor Alumdug died at 148 in leading Ur's mass suicide, not due to natural old age.
Example of probable age per decade during this decline in longevity is Ibbi-Sin. If 30 when becoming elder (king) at the fall of 1st dynasty Ur in 2029 BC, then he is 135 when he becomes 3rd dynasty king in 1925 BC and dies at 158 in 1901 BC. Nahor however is father of Terah (205 from 2148-1943 BC), and so if not suicide at 148 (2177-2029 BC) his life should not extend beyond 8th dynasty tradition. The 8th dynasty ended in 187 years (2207-2020 BC) only because The Pharaoh was created in 2020 BC (as 365-day year 350, and 360-day year 955 = 600+355). However, they continued status until 11th dynasty declared chief king of the HOUSE as sole Pharaoh in 1986 BC, and 12th dynasty 1943 BC. NeoBabylon mistakes year 955 from Flood as a 12th dynasty 1991 BC, in contrast to Egyptian 2134 BC as that year. However if 8th generation Nahor potential is 2177-1991 BC it is only 186 years and less than Terah's 205. If using the true 12th dynasty to end the 8th then Nahor's potential 2177-1943 BC is 234 years, which is about his father Serug's 230 (2207-1977 BC). The 1986 BC 11th dynasty Pharaoh ending all previous subcategory city-kings including 8th dynasty is a Nahor potential of 191, less than father Serug's 230 but also less than son's 205. The indication would seem to be they lost status as kings in 1986 at age 191 but lived to age be 234 in 1943 BC. The middle average (of 191+234)being 212 or less than Serug 230 and more than Terah 205 whose average (230+205) is 217.

Before deciding based on averages as people like to do to create disbelief in preFlood longevity so that we fail to restore it by knowing what makes this difference, do consider, the 187 years of kings (177 from 2207-2030 BC fall of Ur) being 2207-2020 BC creation of the HOUSE (Pharaoh).
The year 1991 BC (Shulgi) mistaken as 1st year of 12th dynasty is the 187th year of Nahor (2177-1991 BC) as 8th generation. But do remember that this implication that his potential beyond suicide was 187 years, denies Terah's 205 and encourages the 145 for Terah (disproven by the 427-year Jupiter calendar 2370-1943 BC and 1034-607 BC).

Classic current example is the disbelief that Mordecai served beside and protecting Xerxes Ahasuerus less than a year failing to prevent the the next assasination plot as he had successfully done before. I have recently (months ago) discovered that in 1988 the WatchTower altered its stand on the 7th year wedding of Esther (486-480 BC) to 495-489 BC. Just as Jews and historians prefer to think Mordecai protected Xerxes for 10 years (475-465 BC; 12th thru 21st year), so too the WatchTower since 1988 revision of AID book as INSPIRED book accepts this 10 years (as 484-474 BC; 12th thru 21st year). This is important to me as to whether i am a prophet or not because all the things that the Last Saints (of the 144,000) have done in WatchTower in parallel to restore christian Jerusalem of heaven in 94 years occurs true only if the wedding was 480 BC celebrated in 1971 AD, disclosed by me mailed anonymously to WatchTower 1983-1986 AD. The 1971 AD connection where March 15 WatchTower mag declares the bride of Jesus as Esther is lost if the event is pushed 10 years earlier to 1961 AD where no magazine declares them as Esther. Now it is I myself who have discovered that 365-day Persian Zoroaster dates are a 5-day shift from Egyptian so that if Artaxerxes alone used it for lunar dates, his dates would be 9 years sooner. So a paradox occurs where the only sole person, namely me,  providing the solution to Artaxerxes for the WatchTower who seems to be the only ones in the whole world accepting the two historians (474 BC), I am being countered by whoever made the change in the 1988 revision regarding Xerxes and Esther's 7th thru 12th years. This is why I feel that if I am the goat of sins given to the Devil (Azazel) to kill on Yom Kippur, then like  John the Baptizer, I then leave my Lord (my queen of heaven) with Judas beside her about to kill her. Yet I drown now in confusion since I cannot make her save the world by relinquishing her lives of 10,000 partakers of communion in a gathering that religious Babylon will destroy and kill because the temptation to destroy this gathering is too overwhelming not to do... just as they were overwhelmed to rid Jesus the thorn once he willingly waked right into it as the goat of Atonement on Yom Kippur. But If Jesus did this on Passover as Passover Lamb, how can he be the goat of atonement of Yom Kippur. Some how the bride has to fit Yom Kippur. Or is this my hour to die, and not theirs. If that happens, then when is there's Dec 25? If the rock that hits us is theat from the moon broken and cut out this October 9 in front of our Earth's path at 3rd quarter position, then where is the time for this sacrifice followed by her appearnce for 40 days afterward to the day of impact?
That is the current puzzle I am working on.