The Southern Location is Sodom

[notopri]

Here are the links to the two articles I have written concerning Dr. Collins and his claim that Tel el-Hamman is Sodom.

http://www.archiesarena.com/subpage210.html

http://www.archiesarena.com/subpage204.html

It needs to be said again as it is mentioned in the former paper, the passage that Dr. Collins has declared is the definitive geographical passage for Sodom's location does not mention that Lot crossed the Jordan River.

Thus there is no way he nor anyone else can claim that Tell el-Hamman is Sodom.

[notopri]

Dr. Collins knows little about moving herds as the Jordan River is known to have a swift current. As God helped me remember, no rancher crosses a swift flowing river with livestock, the risk of losing too many heads is too great.

Ranchers prefer calm slow moving waters to make sure their herds are safe. To say that Lot crossed a swift flowing river with his livestock is just ridiculous and shows that the obsession to prove Tell el-Hamman as Sodom over-rules common sense and good research

[wigwam]

i virtually promised not to return to this thread, but i just couldn't resist one last time to respond to the erroneous information put out by notopri/archaeologist.

in the approximately 100 kilometers of jordan river between the sea of galilee and the dead sea there is a drop in elevation of less than 200 meters. the river is quite slow today, and was even slower in antiquity when the water levels spread more broadly onto the floodplain. the area of the river between jericho and hammam in antiquity was known as the fords of the jordan, because it was commonly crossed in several places. it was the crossing place of the major e/w trade route (and is even noted on egyptian map lists of the 18th dynasty). in antiquity, no one crossed the jordan by wading! the crossing was made using tethered barge-like vesels that were pulled across by ropes. this same kind of fording method was used on the nile, and still is today in several locations. people and animals were loaded onto these flat vesels and transported to the opposite side. it was probably a good business for locals who provided this service for caravans, nomads, and travelers. the southern jordan near the dead sea was a favorite fording place because the water was particularly slow in that area. on the upper jordan, kayaking and inner-tubing are common recreations for children today, and would be on the lower river if not for the military zones. remember, too, that john baptized jesus in the jordan. the jordan is not a torrent, but a rather lazy, calm flow, particularly during the dry season (which is most of the year except during the spring). even during the ancient spring flood season when the jordan overflowed its banks to as wide as several kilometers just above the dead sea, the flow was quite slow, not unlike the nile (to which it is compared in Gen 13:10).

wigwam

[notopri]

the above response is typical or the NLT supporters as they just make things up as they go.

the actual mileage is over 200 and the drop is substantial which doesn't make for a slow river but a swift current.

Notice that there is no credible or legitimate documentation provided to support their inventions. then there is this:

the river is quite slow today, and was even slower in antiquity when the water levels spread more broadly onto the floodplain.

that comment contradicts one of the more ardent supporters of the NLT and one of the lead archaeologists at Tell el-Hamman. obviously, if the truth doesn't fot the theory, then the NLT supporters, like Dr. Collins will change the truth to fit their theory. even if it means disagreeing with one of their own.

The Jordan is one of the fastest-flowing rivers for its size in the world.

http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=1509

the crossing was made using tethered barge-like vesels that were pulled across by ropes. this same kind of fording method was used on the nile, and still is today in several locations. people and animals were loaded onto these flat vesels and transported to the opposite side. it was probably a good business for locals who provided this service for caravans, nomads, and travelers

notice he provides no credible documentation to support this for that would mean refering to the madaba map which would demonstrate that the NLT supporters would be applying a double standard.

i ran into documentation, which i cannot find at this time, which said there was no knowledge of how they crossed the river in ancient times because the waters were too swift. but it is par for the course for the NLTs to fudge any evidence so they can keep their theory intact.

YET even if they were correct (and they do not use ferries for animals), such does not prove that Lot crossed the Jordan. no matter how you slice it, the NLTs have to put into scripture information that is not there.

there also was no need for Lot to cross the Jordan, for the land on the western side was viewed as well and it looked good. so why risk the lives of one's herds when stauyingon the western side was just as good and safer for all/

it is clear that the NLTs, in their rush to claim Tell el-Hamman as Sodom, do not care about logic, facts, reality and will alter texts, manipulate evidence, and contradict God to get their way.

by the way, what the jordan river looks like today is not what it looked liked in ancient times.

Crossing the river Jordan is one of the great disappointments of a trip to the Middle East. Instead of a mighty torrent “deep and wide” as the gospel songs proclaim, the Jordan River for much of its run is a thin rivulet of brown slime largely obscured by reeds. “That's it?” is a refrain I've often heard from American pilgrims when crossing the Jordan river at Allenby Bridge, the border checkpoint separating the Kingdom of Jordan on the river's east bank and Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories on the west bank. The Mighty Mississippi it ain't.



Read more: http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2008/08/07/making_the_deserts_bloom_once/#ixzz0hoJb65lN

[notopri]

as for the claim that the madaba map only illustrates the northern area here is a better picture and it shows that zoar is at the southern end of the dead sea

http://www.christusrex.org/www1/ofm/mad/map.html

thus the nlt supporters cannot use the map to prove their crossing points for then they would have to admit their location for Sodom is wrong.

the nlt supporters need to provide legitimate and correct, along with credible sources to back up their claims. but as it styands, no matter how you look at it, there i sno support nor evidence for Tell el-Hamman as Sodom.

[wigwam]

i've traveled the length of the jordan river many times, on both sides. it is about 60 miles distance form the s end of the sea of galilee to the n end of the dead sea (about 100 km). you can also make the measurment easily on any bible map. you can also easily check the elevations of each. i am exactly correct. i am also correct that the river was much larger (wider) and slower in antiquity. i mean, good grief, to say that lot could/would not have easily crossed the jordan is just plain stupid. the euphrates is massively bigger than the jordan and Jacob crossed the euphrates with all his flocks, herds, and family (Gen 31:21).

to all readers: notopri's previous comments are what we mean when we say that he just doesn't know how to process information or make any kind of sense. "over 200 miles of jordan valley"? give me a break. now, the jordan does meander through its 60-mile-long valley for nearly 200 miles, but that meanering slows down the flow even more!!! the river was very slow in antiquity. but if Jacob could cross the euphrates with his horde of flocks and people, lot would easily have crossed the much smaller jordan.

this is just the kind of idiocy that motivates my permanent departure from this thread. i present facts. i get back idiocy.

wigwam

[notopri]

p.s.-- as further proof of the distorting done by the NLT supportrs we need to see thatthe crossing by jacob is not the same as the one that would have been done by Lot if he had crossed the jordan river..

jacob was making an escape from laban thus when one is doing that they are taking chnaces they would not normally take because the situation calls for risks.  lot was doing no such thing thus he did not have to take the risk of losing livestock because the situation did not call for it.

clearly, the nlt supporters are going to ignore such details because the truth rejects their theory and you can see by their name calling and threats that they do not have the truth and they have no interest in it or real discussion.

Dr. Collins is the same way, they use bullying tactics to make the opposition go away in hopes their warped theory gains credibility but their theory does not stand up to honest scrutiny.

[wigwam]

more nonsense!!!

there is not a single bible scholar that does not identify the river in gen 31:21 as the euphrates. many translations, including the nasb, even say "euphrates." jacob had gone to haran. going back toward canaan, he crossed the euphrates from aram, the location of haran. aram is ne of the euphrates.

i simply can't take this blithering idiot, notopri, any longer.

wigwam

[notopri]

there is not a single bible scholar that does not identify the river in gen 31:21 as the euphrates

#1 bible scholars are not God and do not have the final say. what they claim the name of the river to be needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

#2. i checked several different versions and only 2, NASB & CEV, used the name euphrates. the three better ones, NIV, KJV, NKJV all leave the river nameless.
(2 lesser translations also leave it nameless)
thus the river is nameless and still does not provide proof that Lot crossed the Jordan or that it was a slow moving river.

many translations, including the nasb, even say "euphrates." jacob had gone to haran. going back toward canaan, he crossed the euphrates from aram, the location of haran. aram is ne of the euphrates.

sorry it is not mentioned and if he did cross it, there are two things you are omiting: #1 see previous post and #2 you do not know exactly where he crossed thus the river could have and would have been possibly narrow and safe.

the mere fact you omit and ignore all factors that play a part shows the only 'blithering idiot' is you.

you do not like the fact that your theory is shown to be false and your 'evidence' too weak or just wrong and that it cannot provide proof for your theory. 

again people you see that when the NLT supporters are shown the truth, they insut others and do personal attacks instead of replying with legitimate credible references and evidence.

(notice he said 'many versions' and did not name any of them and the words 'bible scholars' and did not name any of them. tht is an old trick to get the unwary to think there is more support than there really is for an idea or theory)

[notopri]

p.s. the ASB also leaves the river nameless wich puts the idea of 'many versions' name the river to bed and shows that it was a distortion and misleading statement.

[notopri]

It is safe to say that the NLT for Sodom is dead. Sodom can only be located in the south as the northern theory supporters rely on dishonesty, manipulations, and all things not of God to promote their idea.

They cannot prove that Lot crossed the Jordan River, they cannot prove many things and need to restrict scriptures to make their location work and that is wrong spiritually as well as academically.

When it comes to biblical passages peopl eneed to be above board and very honest for there is more at stake here than a mere location of an ancient city. The Bible is not a playground for archaeologists and scholars to twist as they see fit.

They are not above the Bible and have no authority to change what it says nor use it to fit their warped theories and lies. They need to humble themselves before God and seek the truth for the truth is of God NOT Interpretation.

Interpretation is mere opinion and is worthless.

[notopri]

Gary Byers has writtenyet another article on Tell el-Hamman perpetuating the lie that it is Sodom.  Here is the comment made by Dr. David T.:

4/14/2010 6:37 PM #

Having written extensively against Tell el-Hamman as Sodom, it is sad to continue to see articles such as this make publication for it continues to promote being contradictory to God and calls Him a liar.

There are major problems with this archaeological site as Sodom and one is the so-called definitive geographical passage does not say nor prove that Lot crossed the river Jordan. To say he did, is eisegesis at its best and claiming the Bible says something it does not.

Also, God was very clear of the condition of Sodom after its destruction. Zeph. 2:9 states God swearing on His own life that Sodom was and remains a wasteland forever, a place of weeds and salt pits.  Every discovery claimed by Dr. Collins and company, every detailing of evidence for each archaeological age provides evidence that their claim that Tell el-Hamman is Sodom is wrong.

Yet they do not stop and make the necessary correction nor adjust their claims and admit they are wrong. Why is that? Are their egos to big to allow themselves to be humble enough and state that they made an error?   

Who knows but this perpetual declaration needs to stop for they claim to be christian yet defy the very God they claim to believe in and make a mockery of His vow and words. That is not smart nor christian.

Dr. Collins, in one of his many papers onthe subject, argues from silence tomake his point when he said...'God did not say that Sodom was destroyed forever...' Yet he ignores the passage in Zeph. that clearly states it was. Such scriptural dishonesty has lead to his academic and archaeological dishonesty and has lead many down the same sinful and wrong path. That includes the ABR organization, who are usually very good people but they are making mistakes they should not make and straying from what God wants.

Here are some links to opposing papers anda discussion on this very topic which presents allthe errors Dr. Collins and Byers are making and showin how they are off in their claim:

http://www.archiesarena.com/subpage204.html

http://www.archiesarena.com/subpage210.html

http://www.archiesarena.com/subpage209.html

forum.bib-arch.org/.../

forum.bib-arch.org/.../

I will be making a copy of this reply and linking to this article at my website for further discussion and so the words will not be lost due to editing that takes place on this forum. My website is:

http://www.phpbb88.com/archiesforum/

dr. david t - 4/14/2010 6:37:03 PM

Here is the link to the article:

http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2010/04/14/CSI-Hammam-The-Fifth-Season-of-Investigating-a-Biblical-City.aspx

It is too bad that people have this need to change God's word because their egos or their desires  lead them in the wrong direction.

Dr. Collins is decieved and is leadign people down the wrong way for pursuit of his own gain not God's. He is wrong.

[notopri]

here is a response to the comments made by ABR to the above post:

4/15/2010 4:38 AM #

"I agree with Dr. Wood on both accounts and people should care because christians are to go for the truth as the Holy Spirit leads people to the truth. To not care or to let false ideas continue without rebuttal is dangeorus as it sends the wrong message and allows people to go astray without thought of their actions and the ramifications.

If the christian archaeologist doesn't care about the truth, then where are the regular church goers going to get their  correct information? It is a sad state that allows professional christians to abdicate their responsibilities to the rest of the flock.  Dr. Wood even stated, and i have agreed and often quoted him, that he and other christians are doing archaeology to counter the secular scholars (etc.) {paraphrased}.

Yet how can we counter them if we do not care and openly go against God and His word? Christians need to care, they need to find and promote the truth and stay in line with God and His word or what options do unbelievers have?or borderline christians looking to shore up their faith?   

We cannot go as the secular world does, we need to do so hand in hand with God so that He gets the glory and the world knows that He exists.

I find too many 'christian' organizations failing the people of God and too many of the latter fall away fom the faith because they were not fed properly nd shown that their belief is not in vain.

We need to care that we have the truth, we need to care because people rely on us to present the truth and show where the secular professionals have it wrong. If we do not, then we have failed both God and our fellow christian."

dr. david t - 4/15/2010 4:38:22 AM

[notopri]

Clealy notalent has no character or integrity and cannnot defend his support for the NLT so he must post insults and useless ideas.

what a waste of a post

[notalent]

Clealy notalent has no character or integrity ....

Ask yourself what kind of character it takes to make fraudulent posts from fictional people in a vain attempt to manufacture respect....

...for yourself.

Who do you think you're fooling?  If you can't fool us, how much less are you fooling your maker.