the rihab church

[archaeologist]

we need a change of pace here and this latest discovery seemslike a good place to start:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080612/ap_on_re/jordan_oldest_church;_ylt=Ang.Jmv_wfBUBoKGgWVf3J6s0NUE

The cave is under St. George's Church, which some believe was built in the year 230, though the date is widely disputed. That would make it one of the oldest churches in the world, along with one unearthed in the Jordanian southern port of Aqaba in 1998 and another in Israel discovered in 2005.

seems that several discoveries have taken place over the years and does anyone have more information on all of these churches?

[Admin1]

Fascinating!  I will be keeping an eye on the developments.

[archaeologist]

i have only seen 2 public articles on this topic and they both say the same thing, anyone have any other links they can post?

[archaeologist]

amazing one would think that there would be someone out there who might have an idea of these churches and post a few links or continue a discussion.

[digger]

This info. has been on the BAS update homepage with the sites they published listed below.

Read the BBC‘s report at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7446812.stm.
Read the AFP report at http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5giTliyK-fmjEFehwpUOYtvV_INBQ.

Read MSNBC’s story at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25061134/.
To view a number of photos of the cave and the church above it, see: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/science/features/article_1410384.php/In_photos_Jordan_Archeology_-_oldest_Christian_church_in_the_world?page=1.
To learn more about churches in the Holy Land during the first centuries of Christianity, read “Ancient Churches in the Holy Land” from the BAS Library.

[archaeologist]

your first 2 links did not work for me and the third one is just the same article that i posted in my original post.

anyways, is it important that we find the 'oldest' church?  and how would jordon be the home of it if jerusalem and other cities were organized and meeting long before that country's believers?

[digger]

Oops. It didn't like the "periods" on the end so try it now.

Read the BBC‘s report at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7446812.stm
Read the AFP report at http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5giTliyK-fmjEFehwpUOYtvV_INBQ

Read MSNBC’s story at http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25061134/
To view a number of photos of the cave and the church above it, see: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/science/features/article_1410384.php/In_photos_Jordan_Archeology_-_oldest_Christian_church_in_the_world?page=1

[visionary]

I am very interested in the Rihab church and plan to visit it when I am in Jordan this winter.  In the meantime, I will ask my Jordanian friends if they can give us any scoop on it.

According to Eusebius, the Christians fled Jerusalem when it was under siege by the Romans in 68.  This was when Cestius Gallus was the general in charge.  The city was ready to fall when he mysteriously withdrew.  He was then replaced by Vespasian who would eventually become emperor after Nero's suicide.  The Christians remembered the words of Jesus in Luke 21.20-21 - "When you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, ... flee to the mountains."  They went to Pella in northern Jordan, not far from the Rihab church.  Their presence there, along with the hotbed of Christianity in Antioch (Syria), makes the region a logical place for a first century church building.

This is the same region referred to in the Didache, a manual on church order from rural Syria around the year 100 A.D.

These recent church building discoveries are causing us to rethink our paradigm about the church existing in the Domus Ecclesia (house church) for the first three centuries.

[archaeologist]

sounds good but one question.  what about antioch?  wasn't that an earlier church, seems to me that peter went up there to preach long before the fleeing of the romans.

i wouldn't know how long they used houses as meeting places, but does it matter?  wouldn't have neccessity dictated the meeting places?

[visionary]

We know from the Early Church Fathers that the Antioch region grew into a regional center of Christianity.  This is also evidenced by the Didache.

My point about the Domus Ecclesia paradigm is that those of us who are academics need to stop teaching our students that persecution prevented the building of church structures until the fourth century.  Some have actually rejected church buildings on this grounds.  I refer to the "home church" or "cell church" movement, certain strands of which refuse to build buildings because they believe that is not what the early Christians did.

[archaeologist]

My point about the Domus Ecclesia paradigm is that those of us who are academics need to stop teaching our students that persecution prevented the building of church structures until the fourth century.

i will agree with you on that but add that they may have done so outside the persecuted areas, unless they built prior to said persecution.  when one is being persecuted itis difficult to raise funds and build, though it can be done.

I refer to the "home church" or "cell church" movement, certain strands of which refuse to build buildings because they believe that is not what the early Christians did.

i do not think we can say one took place without the other except possibly in the beginning stages of christianity.  many christians, like paul, still went to the temple(s).  Many met in houses (peter and the gentiles).

i would suggest (and this is just a suggestionwithout more than a cursory look at the issue) that buidling actual church buildings did come later but not as late as the 4th century.  people then, like today, wanted to geather together but they wanted a special place to meet.

we have david saying inthe psalms-- 'i was glad when they said let us go into the house of the lord' thus many people reading those words would get the idea to build a specialplace of worship eventhough the book of hebrews tells us that it is not neccessary to do so.

we just have to gather together and i feel that the church building has been misused over the centuries and even today in all denominations.

[visionary]

Archaeologist,

It is clear that the majority of Christians worshipped in house churches, like Peter's house (al least as deduced by the field archaeologists) in Capernaum.  My only caveat is that we can no longer make the point that the first church buildings were not built until the fourth century.  Of course, some of the early Christians worshipped in the temple precincts (Solomon's Porch, etc.) and often in the synagogues.  After 70 A.D. this all appears to have changed.

[archaeologist]

i am basically agreeing with you but am looking at other options to further the discussion though. i would like to see some links to support the following:

It is clear that the majority of Christians worshipped in house churches

my reason would be for that to take place is that they felt it was unneccessary to build their own buildings and not a cultural or financial reason.

After 70 A.D. this all appears to have changed.

i would also put forth the theory that the idea for their own buildings came when certain unscrupolis (sp.) men entered the church and saw something they could take advantage of.  it is only a theory, so feel free to refute it without worry.

[visionary]

Archaeologist,

A simple web search will pull up hundreds of links, but here is one to get started:

orthodoxwiki.org/Domus_Ecclesia

After the temple was destroyed, there was no way for people to worship there.  After the Jews declared war on the Romans in 66 A.D., the Christians wisely removed themselves from synagogue life so as not to be lumped together with the avowed enemies of Rome.  I don't have a link off hand on that, but I don't think anyone doubts it.  If I do come across anything helpful, I'll pass it on.

[JayCutler]

i got a 404 error when i clicked that link.

does anyone have an updated link to this story?