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Author Topic: Tall El-Hammam Part 2  (Read 72154 times)
eliyahu hanavi
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« Reply #525 on: Jun 24, 2009, 05:38 PM »

I know I haven't been on here in ages!

Dr. Collins:

It is so good to hear of your successes recently. My wife and I keep up with the news and even saw you featured (or discussed) on a program which I cannot remember just now. At any rate, as you may recall, I had long ago come to the realization that the Cities of the Plain were in the northern area of the Dead Sea, but that I am no professional and it was more of a straight read from the Biblical text which led me to that conclusion.

It simply pleases me to no end that others in a position to do so have taken up this mantle and have worn it with pride and distinction. I truly hope to be able to volunteer on one of your digs (for any function!) soon. You may recall that I was and have been going through the court system regarding a personal matter. Well, hopefully that will be finally resolved in August of this year! I hope to be able to do something (maybe even bring my wife and son!) by 2010.

My wife and I discuss these things all the time and just discussed your ongoing work a few weeks ago. She is always so highly interested to hear about those things and she even laughed and said that I still had a scientific inclination. However, she did mention how all of these discoveries (seems to have picked up across the board of late which is interesting in and of itself on a spiritual level) build and strengthen one in the faith that we hold. That is yet another one of the many reasons that I love her so much--besides just putting up with me...LOL.

Well, cheers and Godspeed!

Daniel
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Dr. Steven Collins
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« Reply #526 on: Jun 26, 2009, 08:41 AM »

Thanks for the kind words, Daniel. I think you and your wife would enjoy getting the Tall el-Hammam Excavation Project email Updates that are sent out quite often during the year (usually at least one per week, often more), and every day  from the field during the 7 or 8 weeks of the dig season. It's truly an "insider's" look at our ongoing analysis, statistics, theories, and conclusions. Over the past few days we've sent out several revealing statistical analyses of our (recent) final pottery readings through Season Four, and their implications. There is information is these Updates that won't be available to scholars until it's eventually published (some being prepared for publication as we speak), unless they get on board the TeHEP support team with a little donation that qualifies them to receive the Updates (there are some who are doing that!). In order to get these updates you can make even a small donation online at www.shop.tsu-edu.us. I also hope you've found the growing body of material available at the official Tall el-Hammam website, www.tallelhammam.com. Thanks ever so much for following our work, and I do hope you get to join up with us in the field in 2010. Our next season takes place this coming December and January.

SC
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« Reply #527 on: Dec 03, 2009, 01:56 PM »

Dr Collins (hopefully you get a "prompt" via e-mail re: this post):
 I was able to hear your paper at the American School of Oriental Research (ACOR) in November and also understand you presented at Near Eastern Archaeology Society (NEAS) also. 1}I think the forum members would enjoy some of the information regarding this session. 2} I was surprised that no one criticized or questioned the theory that Tall el Hammam could be ancient Sodom. (truthfully, your geographic reasoning sounds solid but I thought there were many southern Sodom advocates). 3} Why did you not present at BAS's BibleFest as it was the same week & city that ASOR & NEAS were? I would have thought that since this forum subject has the most dialogue and discussion, you would have been present. 4} Will you be updating this forum during your next season or how do I keep up with your finds during the dig this month? Thanks - Digger
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Dr. Steven Collins
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« Reply #528 on: Dec 04, 2009, 10:45 AM »

Thanks, Digger, for your interest in Tall el-Hammam/Sodom. Perhaps I talked to you (and didn’t know it) at the ASOR meeting. I spoke with many people about our work at TeH while at ASOR and NEAS, and there was a great deal of interest to be sure. There’s been a tremendous amount of interest generated as a result of recent publications about Tall el-Hammam, from our pending ADAJ report on the first four seasons of excavation to my ASOR and NEAS papers. In late October I was privileged to speak at the Institute of Archaeology at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem at the invitation of Prof. Ami Mazar. My topic there was Tall el-Hammam: The Emergence of a Bronze Age City-State in the Southern Jordan Valley. It was well attended by both students and faculty, and by several visitors from the IAA, and well received. So, the information on TeH is getting around, some of which is challenging some widely-held views about the lack of a true city-state in the Transjordan. But we now have one in the classic formation of multiple satellite towns, villages, and hamlets with massive Tall el-Hammam at the controlling-center. With its fortified inner city and outer city, Bronze Age TeH/Sodom is reminiscent of northern Levantine sites like Tell Atchana/Alalakh and Zincirli/Sam’al, and is of similar size. One interesting surprise has been Tall el-Hammam’s seemingly continuous occupation through the EBA, IBA, and most of the MBA. If it utilized its extensive, complex fortification system and retained its city-state configuration with satellites during the IBA (2350-2000 BCE), it would be unprecedented. I think it did. In the current state of the literature, oft-cited Tall Iktanu is usually styled as the quintessential IBA site in the area, but we now know that it was more likely one of several subordinate unwalled IBA towns within the gravity of the much larger Tall el-Hammam. As I’m now quite fond of saying, interpreting the regional Bronze Age without Tall el-Hammam is like writing a history of France without mentioning Paris. Of course, eventually the archaeological literature will catch up as our publications advance over the next several years. Right now I’m working on a pile of articles and chapters that I’ve been asked to contribute to various books and journals, all of which will help project our data into the literature. I was quite pleased to see Prof. Aren Maeir’s citation of our MBA fortification system in a recent edition of BASOR. So, we’re making good progress, but the data-crunching and interpretive writing is always a slow and laborious process.

As for your second comment, questions and skepticism on the Sodom issue have abated significantly simply because we’ve made a rigorous geographical case based on proper avenues of scientific inquiry. Right now, I can’t think of a single major scholar who doesn’t agree (at least in principle) with my (and a raft of other scholars’) observation that “the Kikkar” (= disk, circle, as in “Cities of the Plain [hakikkar]” and “Plain [kikkar] of the Jordan”) should be considered a formal geographical construct and capitalized (like “the Negev”). There is now simply no room for a protracted discussion on the location of the Kikkar, which is the wide, roughly circular plain of the southern Jordan Valley immediately north of the Dead Sea, visible from the Cisjordan highlands near Bethel/Ai. Those who don’t yet accept this are simply ill- or misinformed, and suffer from a lack of a lack of geographical acuity on the subject. I’m sorry, but it is as simple as that. That Bronze Age Tall el-Hammam and its assortment of large, medium, and small associated sites lie at the geographical core of the Cities of the Plain (Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboiim) tradition preserved in Gen 10-19 is about as certain as the identification of any “biblical” geographical subset. That’s why, in time, all good geographical sources (such as Bible atlases like A. Rainey’s excellent work The Sacred Bridge) will incorporate the term “the Kikkar” for that widened area of the Jordan Valley north of the Dead Sea. As for the identification of Tall el-Hammam as Sodom, that’s another animal. Personally, I think I’ve made the case that the Genesis writer envisioned Sodom as the largest and most prestigious city of the Kikkar of the Jordan cluster. In my view, and in the minds of many scholars, that timeframe was the Bronze Age. Other scholars would merely allow that the Bronze Age tells/talls scattered across the eastern Kikkar provided an etiological opportunity for an Iron Age Gen writer to weave those still-impressive ruins into his “tale of five cities.” But even in this case, the Gen writer, likely being quite familiar with the area, would have known that the ruins we now call Tall el-Hammam were, by far, the largest and most impressive of all, and deserved a dramatic story to account for its demise (thus, his “Sodom”). I mean, good grief, you can still walk the substantially-exposed Bronze Age city wall perimeter today (and at a good clip, it takes you a good half-hour or more to walk it!). Imagine what it, replete with palace and temple ruins, would have looked like 3,000 years ago when it was in a much better state of preservation. Yes, it would have been impressive, to say the least. Thus, whether or not biblical Sodom was a factual or etiological representation, Tall el-Hammam has to be considered the prime candidate for that ‘honor’ if for no other reason than that it is, in fact, the biggest and badest pile of ancient ruins on the Kikkar in antiquity. Period. I’m sorry, but the Robinsonian/Albrightian southern Sodom theory is the height of pre-Copernican-style logic, having been constructed without the benefit of rigorous textual analysis and the now-available (but still little known!) scientific knowledge regarding the Bronze Age cities of the eastern Jordan Disk (Kikkar), especially massive Tall el-Hammam/Sodom.

As for why I didn’t speak at BAS’s BibleFest---I wasn’t invited. Notwithstanding the fact that the Tall el-Hammam Excavation Project is one of the most significant and interesting digs in the history of Levantine (thus biblical) archaeology, the power-that-be (note the singular) at BAS/BAR has chosen to ignore our work, me in particular. One would think the fact that Joey Corbett’s article about Sodom on this website (which deals with our work) was/is highly popular, and that the two Hammam threads on this forum have out-distanced all others by leaps and bounds, would lead the power-that-be to conclude that, at the very least, a presentation or article in BAR or other BAS/BAR venue would generate both interest and vigorous debate. Who knows, such a biblically-based discussion might just invigorate magazine sales for a publication titled Biblical Archaeology Review! You’d think there’d be room at a BibleFest for such a subject as the Tall el-Hammam/Sodom excavation. Thus, I’m forced to the conclusion that the members of that ‘club’ find my geographical use of the biblical text vis-à-vis biblical Sodom distasteful, but I’m perfectly willing to debate all the relevant issues with all comers (BAR readers aren’t stupid, and they’ll recognize a rigorous, scientifically-sound argument when they see it…which I’ve got and my opponents don’t). I’ve thrown down the gauntlet before the power-that-be in the past, and it has been disregarded. I’ve been a subscriber to BAR for many decades, and I know full-well that an article or series of articles on my theories (with scholarly interaction, of course!) would become one of the most popular features in the history of the magazine (look at the Forum stats!). If the right scholars were allowed to contra my position, I guarantee that my responses and the ensuing exchange would be a history-making discussion. Oh well!!!

On your fourth question: Those who donate to the dig get daily email updates from me (and others) from the site. I’m leaving for the excavation on Dec 7 (this coming Monday), and will be in the field for the next eight weeks. That means eight weeks of TeHEP Updates describing what’s happening on the dig, and showing photos of what’s coming out of the ground. Great stuff! Donations can be made online at www.shop.tsu-edu.us. I doubt if I’ll be back on this forum any time soon due to my heavy schedule over the coming months.

Steven Collins
Director, Tall el-Hammam Excavation Project, Jordan
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notopri
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« Reply #529 on: Jan 10, 2010, 07:33 PM »

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Those who donate to the dig get daily email updates from me (and others) from the site

This gets me. Sounds like he is holding the information hostage for ransom and extortion purposes.
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notalent
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« Reply #530 on: Jan 10, 2010, 10:42 PM »

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Those who donate to the dig get daily email updates from me (and others) from the site

This gets me. Sounds like he is holding the information hostage for ransom and extortion purposes.
Nothing wrong with it.  Keeps the distribution list down to those who really care, giving them inside info before formal papers are published.  Great idea, IMO.
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notopri
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« Reply #531 on: Jan 11, 2010, 12:18 AM »

I will disagree with you as it promotes elitism and information for hire.  Information is for all people, it is to be free and not just for those who can pay for it or the highest bidder.

What you and this Collins fellow are saying is that the poor are no entitled to any information for they cannot part with their precious funds as they need to feed their families to buy this information the archaeologist gets for free.


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notalent
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« Reply #532 on: Jan 11, 2010, 09:01 AM »

I will disagree with you as it promotes elitism and information for hire.  Information is for all people, it is to be free and not just for those who can pay for it or the highest bidder.

What you and this Collins fellow are saying is that the poor are no entitled to any information for they cannot part with their precious funds as they need to feed their families to buy this information the archaeologist gets for free.
The information is free if you prefer to wait for published data.  There are published reports on his website.  And you don't have to be rich to contribute.  So all your concerns are answered.  There is really nothing to criticize, IMO.
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notopri
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« Reply #533 on: Jan 11, 2010, 02:12 PM »

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The information is free if you prefer to wait for published data.

In your rush to defend this guy you mised the point. Demanding payment before releasing information is extortion and blackmail and an underhanded way to raise money for a doomed dig.

Quote
And you don't have to be rich to contribute.  So all your concerns are answered.

You so miss the point and are wrong. Tying release of information to a demand for money is unethical and I do not care if other archaeologists do the same thing. It is just wrong.

Quote
There is really nothing to criticize

No there is a lot to criticize as he is digging in the wrong place and using Sodom as a money raising tool. Your blind defense of the person reflects badly upon you.
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notalent
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« Reply #534 on: Jan 11, 2010, 02:44 PM »

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The information is free if you prefer to wait for published data.

In your rush to defend this guy you mised the point. Demanding payment before releasing information is extortion and blackmail and an underhanded way to raise money for a doomed dig.

Quote
And you don't have to be rich to contribute.  So all your concerns are answered.

You so miss the point and are wrong. Tying release of information to a demand for money is unethical and I do not care if other archaeologists do the same thing. It is just wrong.

Quote
There is really nothing to criticize

No there is a lot to criticize as he is digging in the wrong place and using Sodom as a money raising tool. Your blind defense of the person reflects badly upon you.
Are you sure your name isn't "archaeologist"?   :D
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notopri
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« Reply #535 on: Jan 11, 2010, 07:42 PM »

Who?  Can't two or three people come to the same conclusions from study and reading materials? After all Darwin and Wallace did. I think Wallace was the guy's name.
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JLWEST
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« Reply #536 on: Jan 13, 2010, 10:26 AM »

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Those who donate to the dig get daily email updates from me (and others) from the site

This gets me. Sounds like he is holding the information hostage for ransom and extortion purposes.

Sorry, but Dr. Collins is not "holding information hostage" these are simply short, daily (or semi-daily) email updates for those who show enough interest in the dig to help fund it. No hidden info, all will be published as a season report at the end of the season, when they are not spending the whole day digging, cleaning pottery, and recording paperwork. In the meantime find someone who gets the updates and they will be glad to follow the instructions which Dr. Collins gives at the end of every update and "P.S. Please forward this to whomever you like!"

Jim W
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notopri
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« Reply #537 on: Jan 13, 2010, 02:39 PM »

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Sorry, but Dr. Collins is not "holding information hostage" these are simply short, daily (or semi-daily) email updates for those who show enough interest in the dig to help fund it. No hidden info, all will be published as a season report at the end of the season, when they are not spending the whole day digging, cleaning pottery, and recording paperwork. In the meantime find someone who gets the updates and they will be glad to follow the instructions which Dr. Collins gives at the end of every update and "P.S. Please forward this to whomever you like!"

I am always amused and disturbed by the blind defense Americans have for each other and how they ignore the truth because they want to be deceived and have this need to avoid the truth.

My words quoted said 'seems like', which indicates 'an impression given to others' not an accusation. it would be nice if Americans actually learned the English language and how it is used. Instead of going off 'half-cocked' and making issues out statements that do not exist.

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« Reply #538 on: Jan 13, 2010, 03:24 PM »

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Sorry, but Dr. Collins is not "holding information hostage" these are simply short, daily (or semi-daily) email updates for those who show enough interest in the dig to help fund it. No hidden info, all will be published as a season report at the end of the season, when they are not spending the whole day digging, cleaning pottery, and recording paperwork. In the meantime find someone who gets the updates and they will be glad to follow the instructions which Dr. Collins gives at the end of every update and "P.S. Please forward this to whomever you like!"

I am always amused and disturbed by the blind defense Americans have for each other and how they ignore the truth because they want to be deceived and have this need to avoid the truth.

My words quoted said 'seems like', which indicates 'an impression given to others' not an accusation. it would be nice if Americans actually learned the English language and how it is used. Instead of going off 'half-cocked' and making issues out statements that do not exist.

And we are simply explaining to you that your impression is not correct. Not going of "half-cocked"
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notopri
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« Reply #539 on: Jan 14, 2010, 03:10 PM »

I would disagree with you, as the more you try to 'explain' it, the guiltier he looks.
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