Tall El-Hammam Part 2

[Dr. Steven Collins]

Just for the record, Brianroy, to point up how much you simply don't know, Amihai Mazar has been a visiting lecturer at TSU's International Symposium on Archaeology and the Bible, along with dozens of other archaeological notables. And he isn't a woman!!! We've also corresponded by email regarding issues like this thread addresses, and he's been very helpful to me in this regard. [TSU seeks not to pursue traditional accreditation because of its religious stance (along with many other excellent schools), but continues to offer quality nontraditional programs for adult learners (a large number of our students are already doctoral-level engineers, physicians, scientists, educators, and people of many backgrounds and professions.] You know as little about Amihai Mazar as you know about TSU. He would not agree with you on anything you've said in any of your posts. He certainly isn't a young-earther! You're baking up the wrong tree. Virtually everyone in this thread (most of whom I've no idea who they are) has recoginzed your inability to deal properly with logic and data. I've never called you names. I've even appreciated some things you've contributed here. However, you must realize at some point that your invoking of all kinds of irrelevant ideas and material wouldn't be accepted by any archaeologist presently working in the discipline. That's simply a fact. That I reject most of what you say is based on logic, reason, and science, and has absolutely nothing to do with my stance in the NST/SST debate. I'm sure you're a kind and generous person. And I think you have good intentions. But most of the time you simply don't know what you're talking about. You seem to forget that archaeology is the discipline I've been working and teaching in for over 20 years, and biblical studies for over 30 years. My arguments stand on their own merits, and are fair game for anyone to counter with better evidence. Prof A. Mazar and many others in the field have had input into my thinking along the way. I look forward to further discussions with my colleagues on the NST/SST issue in the future.

SC

[wigwam]

will brianroy ever see his errors? neither have i called him any names. i just recognize what so many on this thread have recognized about his posts. many have already bailed out of this discussion because they just couldn't tolerate the nonsense any longer. brianroy has entered a world he knows little about. and now we've got ms. amihai mazar. how embarassing!

ww

[eliyahu hanavi]

If you were familiar with even the reknown Amihai Mazar and her dig at Beth Shean (etc.), you would at least be up for the debate, which you and the NST proponents are not.  Run away in shame and call it something else if you must.

Read her  own cited support from the  Beth Shean website
The Beth Shean Valley Archaeological Project, Tel Rehov
for yourself, such as on p.19 "evolution of Beth She'anValley" etc.(p26 of 46) of this pdf.

compare Amihai Mazar's acting co-editor pdf.against those of Dr. Collins and his colleagues on TeH?  Since Dr. Collins believes himself to be on the same professional level with her, I think a reading between his and her pdfs. will dispute his claim and demonstrate why he is Dean at an unaccredited US University.

Absolutely priceless! However, I see that others beat me to it.

BR,

In your zeal to just cull whatever you can from the internet, you have committed a major faux pas (and that is putting it nicely). Were you perhaps getting your Amihai(s) and Eilat(s) mixed up?? There are quite a few Mazar(s) out there. Look, there are no insults here, but your reasoning and logic skills are flawed if not missing altogether. I and others recognize that and it renders it difficult at best to properly respond--the same held true for "archaeologist" except he did not even try. You can develop these skills and learn how to better apply critical thinking. However, you just aren't there yet. It is friendly advice. Sometimes, one just has to sit back and absorb information rather than trying to immediately refute everything just because the data does not conform to preconceived notions. Gadflies can be discomforting...Cheers!

[DThomas]

I heard both Prof A. Mazar and Prof Collins give presentations at one of the TSU archaeology symposia several years ago. I believe it was the same one in which Dr. William Dever stated from the podium that the TSU symposia were the best thing going on biblical archaeology. I think he was there for two consecutive years. Those symposia were a who's who of biblical archaeology, and very well received by presenting scholars and participants alike. Brianroy should have attended some of these, and could have met many of the people he's fond of mentioning. And even seen that Prof. Amihai Mazar was indeed quite a man!

DThomas

[Brianroy]

         Ooops!            

It happens to the best and worst of us.   


Matthew 6:14
For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

It's nice to know -- and even be reminded and retaught --  that we can stop at any given point, forgive, and move on; and be forgiven ourselves also.

Thanks. 

Peace.

[wigwam]

brianroy:

i don't think that little mistake falls in the "sin" category, so you don't need forgiveness---the "ooops" is surely enough!

as i have read through these two hammam threads again, i can't quite figure out how drs. collins and graves got somehow miscontrued as liberals or minimalists. it seems to me that they're among the the only ones respecting the biblical text and taking it literally (as intended by the original writers). although a maximalist, i think dr. b. wood is seriously guilty of text-twisting, as collins has pointed out in his 30+ page response to him.

collins and graves seem simply to be realists who know how to do biblical geography. it seems to me that the sst is a minimalist view since it runs roughshod over the narrative texts that clearly specify sodom's location (in typical liberal fashion). i'm trying to be as fair about this as humanly possible. at this point i don't see a single piece of straightforward evidence out of all this discussion that would support the sst. what i really want to see is a brief completion of the following statement using ONLY geographical words or phrases:

_____________________ is a specific evidence for a southern sodom because ___________________________.

an example for the nst would be:

lot's eastward traveling direction from bethel/ai (gen 13) is a specific evidence for a northern sodom because the kikkar of the southern jordan river valley to which he was traveling is actually north of the dead sea.

simple. it seems that the nst has quite a long string of such statements it could construct. i can't think of a single such statement that i can formulate for the sst based on anything i've seen of that theory thus far.

such simple statements make it easy to see exactly what the evidences are from the text and geography and archaeology. and it allows short, simple statements of fact as evidence against (either) view. logic and brevity is what any good scientific discussion must have in order to bring clarity to an issue.

as for this thread, i don't think the issues need to be re-traced. however, anyone reading it can construct simple evidential statements for both sides and compare them.

ww

[turanclancath]

  We are safe and sound  back from our holiday in Italy.

So next week I start reading this and other interesting links and post  something.
I,m glad  to be back with you.

turanclancath:)

[eliyahu hanavi]

  We are safe and sound  back from our holiday in Italy.

So next week I start reading this and other interesting links and post  something.
I,m glad  to be back with you.

turanclancath:)

So fantastic to have you back! I hope all went well and that you had a great time! I've only been to Trieste as far as Italy and I stayed for about two weeks on Sicily. Anyway, see you soon...Cheers!

[DThomas]

turanclancath, nice to have you back on board. Good to see e. hanavi also. Things have quieted down since the summer got into full swing.

DThomas

[turanclancath]

Reading the postings in this topic I see it was a long long hot summer!

Happily it cooled down.
Dr.Mc Allister please come in again I appreciated your postings very much.

To be in holiday was good, I look now replenished and fresh to the topic.;with fresh ideys after a maturing period.

As convinced as ever  that Tall el Hammann is Sodom !


I would  like research a little bit   following the COLLINS method
the Connection and synchronity between Abram and his family and Hittites.

As Prof Collins places Abram in the 18 century ( do I rember corrrect ? ),Harran  and the regio around is an interesting study object,
First task would be  is modern Urfa ancient Harran ?

1.

look in scripture for the most relevant text  and then a la Collins a geographical etc search.
The method he did  to discover Sodom.

And everybody thanks for the warm welcome back !

turanclancath :

[turanclancath]

The advantage of being away for  a period is that all information is like wine or olive oil seaved.
In the head is a lot lot of information.
When after a relaxation period you come back, the information is filtered  the best  is sublimated.

So looking now with a kind of helicopter vieuw it occured after re reading the Tall el Hammam  topic I and II that already in March the most essential was said.

I can recommand to re read the posting of Prof. Collins of March 25 11.12 AM.

  Very very essential  and wonderfull; a kind of program every student , scholar and forum  participant  should constantly follow .
Especially point 3  and 4.


greetings from very very summerlike holland.

turanclancath

[turanclancath]

a copy /past from prof.Collins posting of march 28. 2008. 5.47 pm.


Dr. Steven Collins
Full Member

 Offline

Posts: 144


    Re: Current excavations at The Tall el-Hammam Excavation Project
« Reply #71 on: Mar 28, 2008, 05:47 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
:
In answer to DThomas' question (thanks for a real question about archaeology and our dig site!):

The overall footprint of Tall el-Hammam as an archaeological site is about one square kilometer. The EB/MB fortifications (wall=4m thick) have an external perimeter of approximately 500x900 meters, with the long dimension running SW to NE. The size of the Chalcolithic village/town is unknown at this time, but could rival the size of Tuleilat Ghassul (no doubt it'll take us many years to determine this). Thus, the EB/MB city was several times larger than Bab edh-Dhra or Jericho. At least the EB occupation extends well beyond the city walls, and really goes wadi to wadi (really easy to see on Google Earth). For the Bronze Age, you'd have to go quite a distance to find a city of similar size. Hazor is certainly in that size range. So size-wise, T. Hammam would at least be in a class with Hazor (I could only hope that T. Hammam will look so good after thirty or forty years of excavation! I admire what Amnon Ben-Tor has done there; the reconstruction of the LB temple is fabulous). The Iron Age II city at Tall el-Hammam is smaller, and confined to the upper tall. The perimeter of that fortification wall (3m thick) is quite clear, and encircles an area about 170x350 meters. So, the IA city was substantial, but not on a par with, say, the Ammonite city at the Amman Citadel.
............ :


Indeed Tall el Hammam with  seize of nearly 1 square kilometer is a mega city.

Jericho and other citys are dwarf compared to it.

It must have had a big army if you estimate the population for 1 square kilometer. And must have ruled a real little kingdom.
I will use the minimum  ( not the maximum ) estimate  ( see the Troy excavation by the late Prof Korfmann in the link for population westimates  even if you think his  lower city is aninvention as Kolb says  it  the poulation calculation i use it 
 Circa 0,25 square kilometer ( Troy  lower city ) gives minimal a poulation of  5000 people.

Roughly Tall el Hammam with 1 sqauare kilometer would have a population of   circa  20.000 people.
A real imperial city for that time.

The link about Troy  were you  find on page  10   about the population


Saudi Aramco World : In Search of the Real Troy


and here you find the Project Troia link of Tuebingen University

Project Troia


and accoreding to Prof.Pernicka Troy was even bigger  35 ha.=0,35 square kilometer.
here is the link
ANSAmed




turanclancath




 

[wigwam]

what is the latest from the Tall el-Hammam dig? it looks like most everybody in this thread took the summer off. is the dig season on for this winter?

wigwam

[Brianroy]

Wigwam,

Deus Artefacta

Dr. Graves writes:

Wednesday, July 23, 2008
Tall el-Hammam Dig 2009

Many students have asked me about going along on the Tall el-Hammam dig in Jordan. Here is the information and prices for the upcoming dig 2009:

[Then he links TeH prices and other data]

The official dates are Jan 14–Feb 19th 2009.

You have the choice of 4 different stays for the dig depending on your availability and funds. 16 Day, 23 Day, 30 Day, and 37 Day.

You can have your choice of periods to dig which include Middle Bronze, Iron Age, or Early Roman. Dr. Steven Collins believes that this site is an excellent candidate for the ancient city of Sodom (Gen 13-19). Why not consider a vacation of a lifetime and dig up part of this fascinating period of history (It was occupied in the Neolithic and Early Bronze period). It may have been Sodom (Middle Bronze) where Lot came to live with this family but because of the wickedness of the citizens was destroyed by fire from heaven. Then during Moses day (Late Bronze) it was Abel-****tim visited by Moses and the twelve tribes of Israel as they waited in tents to enter the promised land. For two years Moses kept the Ark of the Covenant stood here while he wrote the book of Deuteronomy on our site. Then Moses goes up Mt. Nebo behind our site to die and the Israelites cross the Jordan River to take the city of Jericho and Ai. Then during Solomon’s day (Iron Age) it was a significant administrative center. It is still occupied during the Hellenistic and Early Roman period and called Livias or Julias after the Emperor's wife Livia. Because of its famous therapeutic hot springs early Christian pilgrims visited Livias for healing in the baths. Perhaps we will find evidence of these baths this season. Why would anyone want to go on a cruise?

Posted by Dr. David E. Graves at 1:53 PM  on that date of 07/23/2008

You will also note that he also provides many valuable links in the left hand column for other internet research and study, doing a valuable free service to those truly interested in Biblical Archaeology.

Peace.

[dig4fun]

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