Tall El-Hammam Part 2

[DGraves]

Quote
Did Sodom and Gomorrah Really Exist?
this was writtenin 1995 and i wonder what changed their minds.

As I mentioned before, I have changed my mind on the location of Sodom given the evidence (I know you don't believe there is any!!). They have taken the older material from my website and posted it on their site. My material is updated on my website and includes the research Dr. Collins is doing. The Scroll - Topical Viewer - Archaeology - Sodom & Gomorrah

Here I have attempted to simply lay out some of the history of the search for Sodom.

This is a good example why the reliability of information posted on the web is suspect as it can shift and change without notice.  Appreciate your bringing this link to my attention and will be in contact with them to update their material.

The reason there is so much material on the southern view for the cities of the plain is that since Albright everyone has been focusing on the south and very little of the pre-Albrightean material is posted. Of course you know that because its posted on the web it must be right!!  I would broaden my research to libraries and ILL.
DG

[DGraves]

First the text does not say that there were only five cities of the plain, but they list five and four were destroyed. There may have been smaller sites and communities on the plain in the MB era. If I remember the argument that Dr. Wood was making in our conversations in 1978, the centers that he was arguing for were up on the hill above the salt flats and identified on wadi's. They were cites on a hill over looking the plain. Also, remember that Bab edh-Drah and Numera are now dated to different periods. Their destruction was at different times.

Also, Zeboiim in Hebrew is plural.  We have two sites on the plain (Kikkar) beside each other separated only by a stream or wadi.  These may have been considered as one in ancient times and thus the plural name Zeboiim. Thus, we speak of 4-5 sites. There are 5 sites but they may be considered in ancient time as 4.

[DGraves]

Archaeologist,

I will leave it to others to decide who is the illogical and insulting one in our discussions.  All we seem to be getting from you lately is incoherent statements of illogic and flaming name calling (Stupid, squirrel and Loons). I don't recall lowering myself to name calling. I will no longer bother you with my arguments. I much prefer a civil conversation anyway.

DG

[turanclancath]

Hear Hear Hear as they say in Engish Parliament.

Bravo Bravissimo!
  Highest Time for the Bravi  .

turanclancath

[Dr. Steven Collins]

Prof Graves:
You're correct in discontinuing any engagement with "archaeologist." His rhetoric is completely uncalled for, particularly since you've been nothing but gracious and kind in your discussion and remarks. I will likewise discontinue any interaction with him, and only interact with the others in this thread who are truly interesting in holding an intelligent discussion on the Tall el-Hammam excavation and its implications for biblical archaeology. There's no point in continuing to beat your head against a stone. I know that neither you nor I dismiss other ideas just because they disagree with us. That's why Dr. Wood and I remain good friends, because we have mutual respect for eachother as Christian brothers and scholars. I also encourage others who enter this discussion to read carefully through what has already been said, and to "consider the source" of each comment, and be discerning regarding intentions. I apologize to readers for the rudeness spewing forth from "archaeologist." I encourage readers to simply bypass his posts if necessary to keep this interaction meaningful and respectful. I'll continue to contribute the best and most logical points I can to the discussion as time allows. I truly feel bad that this good forum can be violated in such manner.

turanclancath:
I do have some interesting tidbits to share with you regarding your question on the gaps. I'll get to it when I can. Thanks for your comments.

SC

[notalent]

...

turanclancath:
I do have some interesting tidbits to share with you regarding your question on the gaps. I'll get to it when I can. Thanks for your comments.

SC

Based on findings in similar sites, is there any hope held out of discovering cuneiform or other texts/iconography from the MB layers?

[DGraves]

Dr. Collins,
You states earlier that there were 1700 pieces of pottery.  I'm curious are these the publishable sherds only or would that include all counted pieces? I've not heard any statistics on the count the last three seasons and perhaps everyone might find that interesting.

Thanks for taking the time to share with us and your kind remarks.

DG

[Brianroy]

Livias:

Wasn't Livias a thriving city-town from before 80 BC until the War of the Jews in 66-70 A.D., in regards to the NT era?

 Isn't  this Livias the  same as Betharan, as the Roman Catholic Church historians contend, which appears in Numbers 32:36 and Joshua 13:27?

Numbers 32:34 And the sons of Gad built Dibon, and Ataroth, and Aroer, 35 And Etroth, and Sophan, and Jazer, and Jegbaa, 36 And Bethnemra, and Betharan, fenced cities, and folds for their cattle.

Joshua 13:24 And Moses gave to the tribe of Gad and to his children by their kindreds a possession, of which this is the division. 25 The border of Jaser, and all the cities of Galaad, and half the land of the children of Ammon: as far as Aroer which is over against Rabba: 26 And from Hesebon unto Ramoth, Masphe and Betonim: and from Manaim unto the borders of Dabir. 27 And in the valley Betharan and Bethnemra, and Socoth, and Saphon the other part of the kingdom of Sehon king of Hesebon: the limit of this also is the Jordan, as far as the uttermost part of the sea of Cenereth beyond the Jordan on the east side, 28 This is the possession of the children of Gad by their families, their cities, and villages.


Somewhere near  80 B.C.  this same location of Livias and Tall el Hammon, while being called  Betharamphtha was taken away  from the Arabians is noted as li-B-ias, is it not (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, 14.1.4)?

Now Arabia is a country that borders upon Judea. However, Hyrcanus sent Antipater first to the king of Arabia, in order to receive assurances from him, that when he should come in the manner of a supplicant to him, he would not deliver him up to his enemies. So Antipater having received such assurances, returned to Hyrcanus to Jerusalem. A while afterward he took Hyrcanus, and stole out of the city by night, and went a great journey, and came and brought him to the city called Petra, where the palace of Aretas was; and as he was a very familiar friend of that king, he persuaded him to bring back Hyrcanus into Judea, and this persuasion he continued every day without any intermission. He also proposed to make him presents on that account. At length he prevailed with Aretas in his suit. Moreover, Hyrcanus promised him, that when he had been brought thither, and had received his kingdom, he would restore that country, and those twelve cities which his father Alexander had taken from the Arabians, which were these, Medaba, Naballo, Libias, Tharabasa, Agala, Athone, Zoar, Orone, Marissa, Rudda, Lussa, and Oruba.

There appears to be that this location received two names (?), with  Herod Antipas of Galilee calling it Livias, and fortifying it…while Josephus calls the same location as Julias?  (Josephus, Antiquities, 18.2.1 and Wars of the Jews 2.9.1.)  And oddly enough, there were two cities called Julias as being the city's "second name": that of the Sea of Galilee, and that of Livias.

 Josephus, Antiquities, 18.2.1
     WHEN Cyrenius had now disposed of Archelaus's money, and when the taxings were come to a conclusion, which were made in the thirty-seventh year of Caesar's victory over Antony at Actium, he deprived Joazar of the high priesthood, which dignity had been conferred on him by the multitude, and he appointed Ananus, the son of Seth, to be high priest; while Herod and Philip had each of them received their own tetrarchy, and settled the affairs thereof. Herod also built a wall about Sepphoris, (which is the security of all Galilee,) and made it the metropolis of the country. He also built a wall round Betharamphtha, which was itself a city also, and called it Julias, from the name of the emperor's wife. When Philip also had built Paneas, a city at the fountains of Jordan, he named it Cesarea. He also advanced the village Bethsaids, situate at the lake of Gennesareth, unto the dignity of a city, both by the number of inhabitants it contained, and its other grandeur, and called it by the name of Julias, the same name with Caesar's daughter.


Wars of the Jews 2.9.1  [regarding the northern Julias, or Bethsaids]1. AND now as the ethnarchy of Archelaus was fallen into a Roman province, the other sons of Herod, Philip, and that Herod who was called Antipas, each of them took upon them the administration of their own tetrarchies; for when Salome died, she bequeathed to Julia, the wife of Augustus, both her toparchy, and Jamriga, as also her plantation of palm trees that were in Phasaelis. But when the Roman empire was translated to Tiberius, the son of Julia, upon the death of Augustus, who had reigned fifty-seven years, six months, and two days, both Herod and Philip continued in their tetrarchies; and the latter of them built the city Cesarea, at the fountains of Jordan, and in the region of Paneas; as also the city Julias, in the lower Gaulonitis. Herod also built the city Tiberius in Galilee, and in Perea [beyond Jordan] another that was also called Julias.

Is this correct in regards as to how Josephus relates to this site of Tall el-Hammon? 

Thanks in advance.

Peace.

[notalent]

Livias:

Wasn't Livias a thriving city-town from before 80 BC until the War of the Jews in 66-70 A.D., in regards to the NT era?

 Isn't  this Livias the  same as Betharan, as the Roman Catholic Church historians contend, which appears in Numbers 32:36 and Joshua 13:27?

I believe Dr. Collins has already indicated this city was not inhabited for 500 years after the destruction, which means it would still have been uninhabited when the land was distributed by Moses and Joshua.  If the carbon dating and such turn out to corroborate Dr. Collins hypothesis, then the cities named in Numbers and Joshua cannot be used to falsify it.

[DGraves]

Most of your information is correct.  Hammam has gone under several names over her history. 

Betharamphtha, Julias, Livias are one and the same and this is verified by Josephus as you point out as well as Eusebius. However, Betharan is not verifiable for Tall el-Hammam. There is no indication that this site is the location apart from a few people saying so and the similarities with the name of Bethramphtha. At least I am not making this connection.

Antipas completed this building project in 13 C.E.  and named it Livias, after Emperor Augustus’ wife.  Common sense tells us that a city named after the emperor’s wife (and mother of the next emperor, Tiberias!) would have been built and maintained as an impressive city. For the next seven centuries, Livias (also called Julias) was the dominant city in the region until it disappeared around the time of the turbulent rise of Islam. The city was named Livias, after the emperor’s wife by Herod Antipas. The next year, in 14 C.E., Livia was admitted into the Julian Family (gens Julia Tacitus Ann. 1. 8,14), and the city was given a second name. Only Josephus prefers the name Julias, but by the second century it was exclusively called Livias (Josephus Ant. 18.27; 18.2.1; 20.159; B. J. 2.9.1). The locals called it Bethramtha during the writings of Eusebius and Jerome. Simeon Vailhé, “Livias,” in The Catholic Encyclopedia (9 vol. Transcribed by Mario Anello; New York: Robert Appleton Company, 1910),  p. 315. Nicholas Purcell, “Livia, Drusilla,” in Oxford Classical Dictionary (eds. Simon Hornblower and Antony J. S. Spawforth.; Rev. 3d ed.; Oxford: Clarendon, 2003), p. 876. Morten Hørning Jensen. Herod Antipas in Galilee: The Literary and Archaeological Sources on the Reign of Herod Antipas and its Socio-economic Impact on Galilee (WUNT 215; Tübingen: Mohr Siebeck, 2006).

Herod Antipas is the person who put John the Baptist to death. John was baptizing just down the road about 9.5 Roman miles from Tall el-Hammam. Also, according to Josephus he was imprisoned and put to death at Herod’s summer residence at Machaerus (Josephus, Ant. 18.5.2).

We also have the testimony of many of the early pilgrim who traveled through the area to specifically visit the hot springs present at Hammam (Eugeria, Peter the Iberiam, Antoninus Placentinus and others). These hot springs are rare in the area and we have two that are still flowing today at Hammam.

Another point of reference is in the writing of Eusebius who specifically mentions the VIth and VIIth mile markers in his Onomasticon (136.5; 77.11; 48.3; 12.20; 16.24). Eusebius writes that Mount Nebo “is shown at the VIth Mile of the city of Esbus” (Onomasticon, 136.5) and use of the road was “for him who goes to or goes up from Livias to Esbus of Arabia” (Onomasticon, 16.24). This road ran between Livias and Esbus (Hesban) and was used by pilgrims traveling from Jerusalem via Jericho and the Jordan River to reach Mt Nebo (sanctuary of Moses). The pilgrim Egeria used this road after stopping in Livias to travel up to Mt Nebo. The VIth mile marker was the point where one could either climb to the top of Mt Nebo or turn north and visit the Springs of Moses. She writes:

We began to hasten in order to reach mount Nebo. As we went, the priest of the place, i. e. Livias, whom we had prayed to accompany us from the station, because he knew the places well, advised us, saying: “If you wish to see the water which flows from the rock, which Moses gave to the children of Israel when they were thirsty, you can see it if you are willing to undertake the labour of going about six miles out of the way.” When he had said this, we very eagerly wished to go, and turning at once out of our way, we followed the priest who led us ( McClure, and Feltoe, Egeria, pp. 20–21).

A century after Jerome, the Christian pilgrim Antoninus Placentinus (sixth century) describes the vicinity of Livias and ties it to the same site as both Sodom  and Shi-ttim.  she writes
He writes:

Nearby is a city called Livias, where the two and one half-tribes of Israel remained before crossing the Jordan, and in that place are natural springs which are called the Baths of Moses. There is there a spring of very sweet water which they drink for a cathartic, and it heals many diseases, not far from the Salt Sea, and into which also the Jordan enters below Sodom and Gomorrah…. Antoninus Placentinus, Itinerarium 10 (ed. Paulus Geyer, Itinera Hierosolymitana Saeculia IIII-VIII, CSEL 39; Leipzig, 1898), pp. 165–66, translated from the Latin by Dr. David Maltzberger.

The Mount Nebo Interpretation Display reads:

“The Sixth Mile, near the Roman fortress of al-Mahattah, at Sarabit half way between Esbus [Hesbon] and Livias.”

Tall el-Hammam is exactly 12 Roman miles from Hesbon, it is exactly 6 Roman miles from the VIth Roman mile marker. Tall el-Hammam is exactly where Livias is said to be not at Tall Rama. There is a map and alot more evidence in our forthcoming article.

Put this together with a significant Roman ruins, aqueduct and buildings and a few more arguments and evidence in our article and you have Roman Livias. This is a very significant discovery.
DG

[eliyahu hanavi]

DGraves/Dr. Collins

Another thing of interest that I read in one of the Nimrim reports regarded animal bones and compared those with some other sites. Of interest was pigs which showed zero percent for certain strata post MB. Any comparison to Hammam yet? Any trash heaps found (either side of the gap)?

[Dr. Steven Collins]

turanclancath:
I did see that you picked up the answer to the gap issue from one or more of my papers. Thanks for checking that out. As E Hamavi has oft pointed out, the interpreation of permanent destruction for the area of the Cities of the Plain is unwarranted from the biblical text, and would, in fact, be historically unworkable as there are plenty of local villages today in both the southern and northern locations. So people have moved back into both areas at various times throughout history, including the modern era, which has to count in the equation. For me, the sense of a gap, biblically speaking, came from passages like Num 21:20 suggesting that Moses found no one home on the "plains of Moab across from Jericho." Abel-shi'ttim, Beth Jeshimoth and other names applied to the area seem to be geographical markers and not cities with residents. The Bible makes no mention of any kings or peoples encountered by the Israelites when they came to that area. By contrast, they had fought their way through the Transjordan highlands in order to get to "the wasteland below Pisgah." So, it seemed to me that the area had very few people, and likely no real towns or villages. The first archaeological observation that seemed to connect to this came to me from the excavation reports of Tall Nimrin (just up the road from Tall el-Hammam), which noted the fact that that city came to an end during the Middle Bronze Age, and lay unoccupied for at least five centuries. They called it the "the Late Bronze Age gap," and suggested that it was possibly due to socio-political factors or perhaps some kind of environmental disaster. As I looked at the archaeology of the area, several other sites seemed to follow suit (often from sherding summaries). Kay Prag's small probes on the lower tall at Tall el-Hammam back during the 1990s revealed a similar occupational profile. This isn't to say that some kind of presence during the LBA would be a deal-killer for the NST, after all, Moses and his hoarde hung out there for a couple of years during the LBA before crossing the Jordan. What's terribly interesting to observe is that LBA occupations dot the landscape all around, but off, the eastern Jordan Disk (at sites like Nebo, Deir 'Alla, Jericho, Ammon, Jerusalem, and many others). And since the eastern Jordan Disk was/is the best-watered land in the region, it's quite odd that it's cities lay unoccupied for so many centuries (as confirmed by excavation at Tall Nimrin and Tall el-Hammam), while LBA sites flourished all around. In fact, Prof Papadopoulos, Director of the Tall Kafrein excavation just a 25 min. walk from our site, and I had a conversation several weeks ago in which he specifically asked me what I thought about this gap phenomenon that he was also seeing at his site. If I recall correctly, he said something like, "Where did they all go, and why?" Good question.

Also, someone asked about how tightly clustered the Bronze Age cities are on the eastern Jordan Disk. The answer is that the whole string of them (seemingly five; there could be other smaller sites) run along the same N/S ancient road (and the modern one) over a distance of only about 8 kilometers as the crow flies. It's about 10 km via the road. What's more, they're in two clusters. Large Tall el-Hammam with smaller Tall Kafrein only about 1.5 km away (Sodom and Gomorrah?); then large Tall Nimrin with smaller Tall Bleibel and Tall Mustah only about 1.2 km away (Adamah and Zeboiim?). These two clusters are about 6 km apart. The second cluster has the two smaller talls split only by the wadi (Gleuck said they should be considered the same site because they're so close together), and sitting just at the base of the hills that mount up into the highlands (interesting that the name Zebliim itself means something like "the little gazells" that would have inhabited those very hills). This configuration also matches the relative sizes of the cities in the  two clusters, with Sodom and Admah being the big ones in each. There are many other little observations that make one sit up and take notice of these Bronze Age sites.

DGraves:
Thus far we have well over 1,700 diagnostic sherds from excavated contexts selected for publication, giving us the Chalc/EB/IB/MB/IA/Persian/Hel/Rom/Byz/Islamic profile for various parts of the site (remember, we're talking about a square kilometer of occupation). We have thousands of additional diagnostic sherds from surface surveys. (For those who've never been on an excavation, it isn't unusual to have over a thousand sherds from one day's pottery buckets. Thankfully, not every day!) Sometime this year we'll have our final "read" covering the 2008 season. And yes, as you've stated, the ceramic assemblages are generally much tighter chronologically than carbon dating. I also appreciate you pointing out the general importance of Tall el-Hammam for our understanding of the region in all periods. We can't merely focus on one slice of time, but must deal with everything scientifically as it comes.

notalent:
There's never been an archive discovered at any site in the southern Levant (Jordan/Israel) to date. Could a massive site like Tall el-Hammam hold an archive somewhere in its bowels? Certainly. Could it help with the sites identification? It's possible. Will we find an archive? Who knows? It would be a first. But don't hold your breath! The Hazor archive has alluded excavators for a half-century. Of course, as a dig director, such a find would make me a pretty happy camper!

SC

[DGraves]

Eliyahu Hanavi
Another thing of interest that I read in one of the Nimrim reports regarded animal bones and compared those with some other sites. Of interest was pigs which showed zero percent for certain strata post MB. Any comparison to Hammam yet? Any trash heaps found (either side of the gap)?

Good questions and Dr. Collins may be able to address this better than myself just working in single square (Iron Age II house last season and Roman structures this season).  We did find a few small bones but were unable to make an identification of them.  There is still much to process.  We are conscious of the other reports from the surrounding Talls and the significance of the presence and absence of pig bones. But as far as I know there is nothing to report yet in this area.  Dr. Collins may have better knowledge of this than myself.

But good correlation with the other reports.
DG

[reader]

Stop the press! There is a new article that is a must read under the topic "to read the text literal or not". I think we have attracted the attention of Dr. Richard E. Friedman
It's a fun and easy read without to much of the archaeological dust.

[archaeologist]

to set the record straight---

i was the one that told graves not to address me.  to think you can continue to insult someone and then pat each other on the back as if you did a good thing is not right.

itis also not right to ignore issue that have been raised as problems have arisen in the northern theory's presentation.  problems they cannot get around.

i see those two skate around and completely ignorevital issues because it shows them to be wrong and very poor in their research.  sodom was not in the inheritance yetthis tell is right in the middle of the territory of one of the 12 tribes.

the map i posted has proven this, plus zoar was in moab, which was in the south.  then no one knows the size of the jordon plain in abraham's time so it is impossible to say which part of it lot traveled to.  couple that with the fact of missing information, location is also impossible to prove.

but certain people ignore the realities and delete other scriptures because it shows them to be wrong and they just can't let go of their pet theory. they have yet to explain the discrepancies in what they have found with what scripture has said.

they cannot account for the missing years of desolation as they are a minimum 500 years short in their dig.  1700 pieces of pottery do not rectify these glaring omissions and contradictions and none of it proves that sodom existed on that spot.

they may have a city but it isn't sodom because it doesn't fit ALL the details.