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Author Topic: Rachael Elior Says Essenes Never Were  (Read 2078 times)
notopri
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« Reply #15 on: Jan 13, 2010, 02:22 PM »

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would point out that this is the Biblical Archaeology forum. If you are not interested in this subject then what is your purpose?

I have given you the answer twice now, you just keep beating a dead horse.

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There are people that are interested in differences between Methodists and Protestants. Those people are on forums related to those issues

You are missing the point of the example and seek to make a mountain out of a molehill. I really do not have time for such discussions.

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Why do I need to justify my interest in archaeology on an archaeology forum?

You are now creating an issue where none existed and it is you who are not discussing. I have been patient in trying to explain why your scholar is on the wrong track.

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Josephus says that the Judeans hold up at Massada attacked Ein Gedi, killed the inhabitants (women and children) and stole their food. If there were Jews living at Ein Gedi this would not have happened

And you can read long dead minds? I have a copy of Josephus so please provide chapter and verse where it says that.

Don't read too much in to the past.
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Susan Burns
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« Reply #16 on: Jan 13, 2010, 03:43 PM »

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would point out that this is the Biblical Archaeology forum. If you are not interested in this subject then what is your purpose?

I have given you the answer twice now, you just keep beating a dead horse.

Quote
There are people that are interested in differences between Methodists and Protestants. Those people are on forums related to those issues

You are missing the point of the example and seek to make a mountain out of a molehill. I really do not have time for such discussions.

Quote
Why do I need to justify my interest in archaeology on an archaeology forum?

You are now creating an issue where none existed and it is you who are not discussing. I have been patient in trying to explain why your scholar is on the wrong track.

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Josephus says that the Judeans hold up at Massada attacked Ein Gedi, killed the inhabitants (women and children) and stole their food. If there were Jews living at Ein Gedi this would not have happened

And you can read long dead minds? I have a copy of Josephus so please provide chapter and verse where it says that.

Don't read too much in to the past.

Don't read too much into the past? Once again, I must remind you that this is an archeaology forum. By definition archeaology is about the PAST. If the PAST does not interest you please find something that does.

Here is the response to your request for Josephus information; http://books.google.com/books?id=YoXUXvBUUjgC&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=josephus+ein+gedi+zealots&source=bl&ots=gmS8ULJmp3&sig=ioNY6zwvxfgnGA119oureGp5sBA&hl=en&ei=sUpOS6enEovSsQOcp8z9Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAkQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=josephus%20ein%20gedi%20zealots&f=false
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notopri
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« Reply #17 on: Jan 13, 2010, 04:04 PM »

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I must remind you that this is an archeaology forum. By definition archeaology is about the PAST. If the PAST does not interest you please find something that does.

Let me remind you that you are not the owner of this forum and saying things like that will only backfire on you. It is quite obvious that you have taken one small comment about the name of a group of people and distorted it for your own purpose, what ever that may be.

The origin of the name Essene or the lack of an equivelent is not that important, that is merely taking minutia and blowing it out of proportion. Such does not indicate non-existence of a group of people or their work.

Those that highlight and make a big deal out of it are not looking for the truth per se, but to add in more confusion and makethe issue far more cloudier than it should be.

Your 'scholar' is just re-hashing already proven ground and not worth the time to do a in-depth discussion on the topic. She has been shown that her studies are lacking in etymological research and is focusing on a hazy point to try and re-write history (which has been the fad for some decades now).

Thanks for the link but your turn in your part of the discussion has removed any desire in me to discuss this topic with you. That may change if you get off your high horse and stop thinking you know anything about archaeology and I do not.

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OldSage
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« Reply #18 on: Feb 06, 2010, 07:00 AM »

I did read the article (quite some time ago.)

There was a group of ascetics that lived in Ein Gedi and Qumron around the 1st century (undisputed.)  What did the priests of the temple complex call these people? We know that the priests of the temple complex knew they existed. Surely they had a name for them. Maybe they called them "Minim" because to write their real name with holy writing would be blasphemous.

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I am content with the word 'Essene' and do not see a problem with not knowing their Hebrew name. I am not doubting you about Ein Gedi back i do not see the correlation between the two. There were many asetic groups and still are today, so you need to make your point.

Are you saying the Essenes did not exist because 1 scholar decided there wasn't enough hebrew references to them for her liking or are you saying they were part of this Ein Gedi group?  We know the Essens existed

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Several important archeological findings have verified the existence of the Essenes, including the Dead Sea Scrolls, which have been identified as part of an Essene library. The famous historian Josephus also confirmed their existence, stating that they comprised one of three major Torah schools – the other two being the Pharisees and the Sadducees. The founders of the movement, Josephus said, were Jewish high priests who came from the house of Zadok during the time of Solomon.


http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/back_to_basics/early_christianity/essenes.html

The Dead Sea Scrolls, bear the names of the sons of Zadok, the great grandsons that split off from the Temple and Jerusalem, when the Hellenistic priests took over, they were the only Levites that could serve God in the Holy of Holies, (Ezek. 44:5-16). Their names were, Jehoiarib, Jedaiah, Seorim, Jeshua, Maaziah, as listed in (1 Chron 24:7) as written in the sequence of 1st, 2nd, 4th, 9th, and 24th.  And Jehoiarib Mattahias as noted in (1 Macc 2:1) his son Chasmon, (Asmonaeans, or Hasmonaeans) the great grandfather of Joseph Mattathias, and his sons, Eleazar, Judas, Johanan, Jonathan, and Simon.

Consider that it was Chasmon, Johanan, Simeon, Mattathias, the sons of Zadok that built up Khirber Qumran, above En Gedi, called the Essenes which is a misnomer of etymology from [[ L Esseni < Gr Essenoi, said (by Philo) to be < hosios, holy, pious, but < Syrian hsen, pl < hsi, pious, holy]] the Levitical sons of Zadok were building it's walls 250 years before the birth of Christ Jesus. These scribe's were copyists of the Torah and scrolls daily, not fifty years or 150 years later.  The dating methods of sixty years ago are obsolete, it's the ink of the scrolls and the DNA of the pollens microspores in the ink, that will reveal the where and when, the scrolls were written.

Any more than Daniel's writing down the prophetic message given to him, of the times of the Maccabean wars, that critics say were written much later, and yet the holy and pious sons of Zadok at Qumran knew Daniel had written about their times, and the coming of the Massiah, the hope of all Jews. These sons of Levites, as non-Hellenized priests and scribes, wrote their Manual of Discipline, verifying their exsistance, the copying of the Scrolls in Old Hebrew, and placing them in caves for safekeeping, confirms their Levitical duties. The sons of Maccabaeus were of the same discipline, to the point they had to fight back, to preserve a nation, and themselves as keepers of the temple. As their written accounts attest to also. Their depositories of scrolls and books, were safe for over 2000 years, even the long lost ones, were in their possession, Jubilees and the Copper scrolls, that only the true Levites appointed by God would have, and protect.

Maybe this scholar, Rachael Elior, is correct, if even this sect never used the term themselves. But even the scholars that kept the Dead Sea Scrolls, to themselves for many years, searching for the same thing this Jewish sect was looking for, and never truely understood the message of the Seventy sevens/weeks given to Daniel, which was not a book hidden in a cave.
 
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OldSage
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Susan Burns
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« Reply #19 on: Feb 07, 2010, 05:47 PM »

If I understand correctly, you are saying the people of the DSS were Pharisee. The DSS people used a solar calendar but the Pharisee used a lunar calendar. Therefore, the DSS people could not be Pharisee. If I misunderstood your post, I apologize.
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Moses
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« Reply #20 on: Mar 16, 2010, 11:19 PM »

One major mistake is to try and group the people of Qumran as Esen or Zealot etc.

When one is doing so one has to provide the time frame because it is possible that in 250BC a completely different group lived there and then 100BC another related group lived there and 1 CE some other group lived there.

They all followed religion of their time.
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notopri
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« Reply #21 on: Apr 15, 2010, 02:21 PM »

The Bible doesn't have to mention every group by name nor does Jesus have to 'encounter' them for them to exist. The position presented here by that 'scholar' is way off base and how unrealistic they get when dealing with biblical or historical issues.
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