Should Palm Sunday be Celebrated in the Fall?

[MinisterKGC]

Article in the Mar/Apr issue by  Bruce Chilton

I would like to see some opinions on this hypothesis.

See BAR Mar/Apr page 28

His premiss seems to center on that the gospels were written to accomodate understanding instead of being eyewitness accounts of the events portrayed or being recorded by gathering information from eye witnesses as in the case of Luke.

He calls it 'Liturgical logic' over Historical logic' but to me that is still saying the gospels are not truthful accounts of these events.

Opinions? 

[archaeologist]

it would have been nice if you provided a link as a courtesy to those who want to respond to your post.

He calls it 'Liturgical logic' over Historical logic' but to me that is still saying the gospels are not truthful accounts of these events

but you are probably right here, though i would disagree with celebrating palm sunday as it is not a day we were commanded to observe by Jesus.  there were only 2 things Jesus told us to celebrate--communion and baptism everything else needs to be re-examined.

that is not to say one does not worship Christ for who He is but that we do not limit that worship to just one day.

[MinisterKGC]

it would have been nice if you provided a link as a courtesy to those who want to respond to your post.

He calls it 'Liturgical logic' over Historical logic' but to me that is still saying the gospels are not truthful accounts of these events

but you are probably right here, though i would disagree with celebrating palm sunday as it is not a day we were commanded to observe by Jesus.  there were only 2 things Jesus told us to celebrate--communion and baptism everything else needs to be re-examined.

that is not to say one does not worship Christ for who He is but that we do not limit that worship to just one day.

Excuse me, I am new here, and this is my very first post.  I don't know what link you are talking about. I am discussing or wish to discuss an article in the most recent BAR magazine which I have in front of me on my desk. I thought that was what this forum was for, subscribers to BAR? If not I am mistaken and offer my sincere apologies.

Minister KGC.   

[MinisterKGC]

After studying the synoptic gospels, it does seem that they can take this chapter out where it resides and move it back so as not to look like it belongs just a week or so before Passover but upon examination of the gospel of John, which I have an affinity for, you can see that the entrance and the Passover week do occur back to back. Chapter 12 starts out that it was 6 days before Passover when he came to the house of Lazarus and from there the next day he left for Jerusaem, where a crowd had gathered because they heard he was coming and took the lulav and waved and spread it before him.   

John is sure to keep mentioning that it was during the feast, and that the crowds had gathered for this particular feast. Although he does have the order of the entry  and the commandeering of the donkey opposite what the other gospels do.   

It is also odd that the typical elements commanded to be present at the seder are not mentioned by not one of the four. These are commandments that should not be broken in accordance with the Passover, unless this was not the official passover, as it is being eaten the day before the rest of Jerusalem celebrates it. It may be a difference of calendars, or something else. Some suggest it was a teaching seder that was done by Rabbi's of the day to teach their disciples a particular lesson, and the next day they would go and spent the Passover with their separate families as this is a family celebration and there are commands tied to it that are foundationally familiar .   

John states that one of the reasons the crowds came out to meet him with the lulav branches was because they had heard of the miracle he performed with Lazarus. So it seems they were looking for a King and a Messiah.

[archaeologist]

Excuse me, I am new here, and this is my very first post.  I don't know what link you are talking about. I am discussing or wish to discuss an article in the most recent BAR magazine which I have in front of me on my desk. I thought that was what this forum was for, subscribers to BAR?

it probably is and no worries.  some of us do not have a subscription so when interesting subjects like yours come up we can't see what you are talking about.  which is why i asked for a link. 

if there is no link then there is not much you can do.

as for:

So it seems they were looking for a King and a Messiah.

this is something that is made quite clear, the Jewish people were looking for a king/messiah BUT it was a physical one they wanted not a spiritual one.  they wanted relief from the roman rule not forgiveness of their sins while remaining under that oppression.

[Brianroy]

Table of Contents | Biblical Archaeology Review

[Brianroy]

Chilton  in blue:

Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem is also marked as a ritual occasion by the recitation of material from the Hallel, a group of psalms (Psalms 113–118) that were sung all through Sukkoth.

All four Gospels quote slightly varying parts of Psalm 118:25–26. In Mark 11:9 the welcoming crowd sings: “Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Blessed is the kingdom of our father David that is coming! Hosanna in the highest” (see also Matthew 21:9; Luke 19:38; John 12:13).

Procession to the Temple with lulav in hand was a requirement of the eight-day Sukkoth festival, even on the Sabbath, because it was an intrinsic part of the festivity (Mishnah Sukkah 4:4).

The Aramaic Targum  [Which were written well after Jesus' Paschal coming, with an anti-Christian hatred]  of the last chapter of the Book of Zechariah predicts that God’s kingdom will be manifested over the entire earth when the offerings of Sukkoth are presented by both Israelites and non-Jews at the Temple.

It further predicts that these worshipers will prepare and offer their sacrifices themselves, without the intervention of middlemen. The last words of the book promise that “there shall never again be one doing trade in the sanctuary of the LORD of hosts at that time” (Targum Zechariah14:21).


Zechariah 9:9 presents the messianic king as riding on a colt. For a royal figure, garments might well be strewn in the way (2 Kings 9:13).

That was all the more natural at Sukkoth in the case of Jesus, who was a descendant of King David (see Matthew 21:4–9; Mark 11:7–10; Luke 19:35–38).

In all of this, there is a deep connection between Jesus’ messianic role and the Book of Zechariah.

Understanding the historical timing of Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem at Sukkoth opens all this up to us.   

[archaeologist]

thanks brianroy for the link.

Baptism emerged as a key Christian ritual. Baptized Christians who had prepared themselves to follow Christ, after an extensive period of study, prayer and fasting, shared in his death and resurrection on Easter, the Sunday after Passover. They, too, would someday join him in Paradise.

this i will address first.  1st : baptism didn't emerge.  that is a wrong interpretation of the command.  it was nstituted at the beginning not only by John the Baptist but by Christ's act of baptism by John.  then in the great commission we see these words:

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

this is not an emerging ritual but a direct command on what believers are to do as they save souls.

2nd:  the term christian needs to be defined here as not all people who claim the title actually are.  it is a well known historical fact that the roman catholic church hiearchy adopted and adapted many pagan rituals to fit their idea of christianity.

too lump every act by a 'believe' into one category is not right and we must be sophisticated here and learn to differentiate between pracices and people.

Liturgical logic, rather than historical reason, often guides the Gospels. The result is sometimes disagreement from gospel to gospel, and sometimes outright anachronism.

i would disagree here as the gospel writers were not writing a liturgy for the church to follow but an actual highlighted account of the life and words of Jesus.

it has been turned into liturgical doctrine but that is not the real case.  the author of this piece may also complain if ALL the gospels were exactly the same word for word.  these were different men with different personalities writing what they knew, experienced or heard and God knew that identical accounts would be cause for more criticism.

we cannot expect God to be robotic in His work neither whould the Bible be robotic in form.

the rest of the article would take more time to research and compare but i think he misunderstands the function of the gospels and inserts a modern view into scriptures which need to be looked at from the ancient view.

what i have found over the years is that many people forget the many uses and meanings that come with the english language and that they tend to look at passages with a limited modernidea instead of the full english meanings.

this is becoming a problem in communication as people get insulted whenthey do not realize the speaker or writer was using a different aspect of the english language than they used when reading or listening.

i have seen this take place on many occasions especially on chat room forums.

[Brianroy]

Babylonian Talmud contrasts to Chilton's use:


Baba Bathra 134a   suggests that: ... "the whisper of the palms" may be related to the supernatural language, equal with the invisible world's "language of the ministering angels".


Sanhedrin 93b:  
"The Messiah — as it is written, And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge of the fear of the Lord. And shall make him of quick understanding  in the fear of the Lord.

  R. Alexandri said: This teaches that he loaded him with good deeds and suffering as a mill [is laden as an animal of service never having before served].  

Raba said: He smells [a man] and judges,  as it is written, and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears, yet with righteousness shall he judge the poor.

(Bar Koziba  reigned two and a half years, and then said to the Rabbis, 'I am the Messiah.' They answered, 'Of Messiah it is written that he smells and judges: let us see whether he [Bar Koziba] can do so.' When they saw that he [Bar Kosiba in ca. 135 A.D.]  was unable to judge by the scent, they slew him.)

Shabbat  50a: Palm branches may be cut down in seasons when dry, and used as a type of seat instead of for fuel, like straw.

Rabbah b. Bar Hanah recited before Rab: If one cuts down dried branches of a palm tree for fuel and then changes his mind, [intending them like straw] for a seat, he must tie [them] together;

  R. Simeon b. Gamaliel said: He need not tie them together. He recited it and he stated it: The halachah is as R. Simeon b. Gamaliel.

It was stated: Rab said: He must tie together; Samuel maintained: He must intend [to sit or to use them for the purposes of material, such as matting or basket-weaving]:

while R. Assi ruled: If he sits upon them,  though he had neither tied nor intended them [for sitting, it is well].  

...And which Tanna disagrees with R. Simeon b. Gamaliel? R. Hanina b. Akiba. For when R. Dimi came,  he said in the name of Ze'iri in R. Hanina's name: R. Hanina b. Akiba once went to a certain place and found dried branches of a palm tree cut down, and he said to his disciples, 'Go out and declare your intention,  so that we may be able to sit upon them tomorrow'.

...R. Ashi said, We too have learnt [in regard to forced rulings upon the Sabbath]: One must not move straw upon a bed with his hand, yet he may move it with his body;  but if it is fodder for animals, or a pillow or a sheet was upon it before nightfall,  he may move it with his hand.


In these above examples, there is no need for the palms to be in season to be taken down, as Chilton claims.  The Water libation requires a use of palms for the making of the sound of a rushing mighty wind, a language of the Ruach HaKodesh (the Holy Spirit) during the fall feast of Tabernacles...but there was no rabbinic or priestly led effort by the 3,000,000 on Nisan 10 (the Spring Day) on Palm Shabbat (Palm Saturday) when Jesus entered Jerusalem.

The people gave up Yom Kippur once, for a dip in the Jordan with John the Baptist, believing him as a True Prophet from HASHEM.  They gave up a required Jerusalem assembly and Festival observation of the Temple ritual (sometimes controlled by robbers through the Bazaar in the outer Temple Courts) for a greater personal seeking of HASHEM.  That assemblage was outside and away from Jerusalem at the Jordan, where the Pharisees sent out their disciples to look for an entire nation that went missing.  But now, those same people, who had violated the rabbinic and priest concept and demands of Yom Kippur, were looking for something greater also for the Passover.  The Messiah that John the Baptist announced had now come, and as the rabbis taught, there must also be more to the sensory perception.

That is, there must always be more to the ancients than what we in the 21st century (in sanitized houses, and manicured environments) will dignify to a 1st century culture.  Fewer and fewer people (including scholars), apparently, make the effort of thinking it through any more.

In the absence of the cedars of Lebannon, the offering was the smell of Palm Branches and the Sound of Living Waters as Jesus poured forth down Olivet.  But there is more to this than meets the rabbinic concept. 

[Brianroy]

Luke 19
33And as they were loosing the colt, the owners thereof said unto them, Why loose ye the colt?
34And they said, The Lord hath need of him.
35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments [(h)imatia] upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon.
36 And as he went, they spread their clothes [(h)imatia]  in the way.
37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest. 

Mark 11:
8 And many    [Matt. 21:8 clarifies this as "most" of the crowd] spread their garments [(h)imatia] in the way: and others cut down branches off the trees, and strawed them in the way.
9 And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:
10 Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.


Luke 19:
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

And after these events, the Gospels tell us that Jesus went into the Temple, and was observed by the people for 4 days, as even the spotless Paschal Lamb must be examined for 4 days to be considered  ritually pure for sacrifice.  There is no doubt as to this, as the Gospels are clear to mention this timeline of Jesus' arrival was as we have always known it to be.

If we follow the Gospel accounts, will Chilton next suggest Jesus was crucified in the Fall and we've had it wrong for 1978 years?  That would be the next logical presumption in what I consider his  illogical reasoning on this issue, if he should pursue his thesis.  I suggest that Chilton is perhaps looking for more for shock sensationalism acceptance among his peers and to sell his books, as was that recent proclamation by a headline seeking Psychology educator at Hebrew University in respect to defaming Moses character.



In the Old Testament, two important words for garments are LeBUSH (Lamed-Beth-Vav-Shin) and Me'il (Mem-Ayin-Yod-Lamed), which is simply "trespass" with a yod inserted after the Ayin.  When the abbreviative of YHVeH  (the Yod) is inserted into the Trespass, it changes into a "robe", or outer priestly vestment.

In Psalm 93:1, (when we read the LXX Greek of this Psalm) we see that the L-RD is clothed with, or  "enedusato", honor and strength.

 He inherently already has these qualities of honor and strength, but the L-RD has done something...He has inserted Himself into events or happenings, and girded Himself with "glory" in regard to those events. 

What might be like a medal to a soldier, is transferred to being like another garment layer of greater glory to the L-RD.  The L-RD saved mankind through Noah and the world-wide Flood...add another layer of glory.  The L-RD created the heavens and the earth...add another layer of glory.  The L-RD redeemed Israel out of Egypt...add another layer of glory.  (And so on.)

In Job 27:16, we see garments being layed down as the clay. The LXX alters the word garment into the word "gold", as if the wicked were to lay gold as if a clay street or path...something we see in Revelation about Heaven that is done for the righteous.  In the Hebrew, the word for garment here in Job 27:16, is "MaLBUSH", which can be any kind of clothing the hides nakedness.

In Isaiah 63:6, when it says, "Our righteousness is as filthy rags / cloths", the essential word in Hebrew is "BeGeD", which is used far more as "treachery" and "unfaithfulness / infidelity" than it is for "cloth". 

So in effect, as King Messiah upon His horse would trod on the filthy garments of the repentant wicked, He would righteousify them by inserting His goodness into the their wickedness, and purify them...just as much as being baptized by John for the remission of sins righteousified them...because they were obedient to reverse that next / following verse in Isaiah 63:7 - they did call upon His Name, and seek his face, and laid their garments in repentance before Him, and joyed that their iniquities were now as if blown away by the wind.

Israel throwing off layers of their clothes when Jesus came to Jerusalem in fulfillment of Zechariah 9:9?  What were they thinking?

Isaiah 4
1 And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.
2  In that day shall the branch of the L-RD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.
3 And it shall come to pass,
that he that is left in Zion,
and he that remaineth in Jerusalem,
shall be called holy,
even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion,

Zechariah 3:
4  And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5  And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the L-RD stood by.
6  And the angel of the L-RD protested unto Joshua, saying,
7  Thus saith the L-RD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8  Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9 ...and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 (And) In that day, saith the L-RD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.


Hosea 14:

1 O Israel, return unto the L-RD thy G-D; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.
 
2 Take with you words, and turn to the L-RD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.
 
4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely....
 
6 His branches  [the Messiah's] shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
 
7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
 

Isaiah 61:

10 I will greatly rejoice in the L-RD,
my soul shall be joyful in my G-D; f
or he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation,
he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness,
as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

11For as the earth bringeth forth her bud, and as the garden causeth the things that are sown in it to spring forth; so the Lord G-D will cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all the nations.

Proverbs 30:
12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.


Therefore, by throwing down their clothes...by faith...the  people of Israel were so moved by the emotionalism of Jesus' arrival and by some 3 1/2 years of hope offered them in signs and wonders, that on a given Spring Day, they were finally willing to give up both their physical and their spiritual clothes of filth, of trespass, of infidelity.

And after the procession, etc., they will go to the running Kidron (as John 18:1 indicates, suggesting recent rains) and wash away their trespasses and sins which are now forgiven in the trodding down of their clothes in the new tradition as taught them by John the Baptist.  Andthis, taken perhaps from their own Scriptures...even as their great ancient king Asa  did wash away their idols at Jerusalem also, which were first GROUND to powder, many years earlier, in this same brook Kidron (2 Chronicles 15:16). Cf. Hezekiah 2 Chron. 30:14, and Josiah 2 Kings 23:1-6.

To me, Chilton's "fall" argument is based on a very weak position. In and by itself, the Palm Branches issue is inconclusive. As I have shown, the Scriptures don't even allow Jesus' coming to the Fall, but even prophecy, if seen in another perspective, is more in depth than Chilton is willing to go.  The casting down of sins, as is the removal of "leaven(ed bread) or sin " from a household...and a body of a man is the house of his own soul...can equally or more rigidly apply to a Spring Feast than a Fall one...using those same Jewish Festivals and traditions.

[Brianroy]

Table of Contents | Biblical Archaeology Review

This footnote article was attached to Chilton's BAR article.  I concur that the people of Israel were in a state of crying out -- save us -- Hoshiah na, as that article points out...(as well as those who were in a state of praise, as Luke 19:37 points out). 

Some of the Pharisaic  leaders of Jerusalem (in Luke 19:39) thought the praises were inappropriate.  Why was that?  If they taught that such praise was reserved only for a Messiah that comes on the Feast of Tabernacles, and this were that Fall festival, where would the sin be?  But it wasn't the fall.

Jewish precedent was established in 141 B.C. for the waving of palms and celebration OTHER THAN FALL MONTHS...in the month of June... some 170 years before.

"On the 23rd day of the second month, in the year 171, [June 3,  141 B.C.] the Jews entered the citadel with shouts of jubilation, waving of palm branches, the music of harps and cymbals and lyres, and the singing of hymns and canticles, because a great enemy of Israel had been destroyed."   (1 Maccabees  13:51)

If Messiah had come, the season was not so important to the masses.  Josephus in his Antiquities, tells us of rough winter months.  After Tabernacles ends, the Romans would winter in Jerusalem...after Sukkot. 

In the late fall and winter months of 29-30 A.D.:

Josephus, Antiquities 18.3.

1. BUT now Pilate, the procurator of Judea, removed the army from Caesarea to Jerusalem, to take their winter quarters there, in order to abolish the Jewish laws.

So he introduced Caesar's effigies, which were upon the ensigns, and brought them into the city; whereas our law forbids us the very making of images; on which account the former procurators were wont to make their entry into the city with such ensigns as had not those ornaments. Pilate was the first who brought those images to Jerusalem, and set them up there; which was done without the knowledge of the people, because it was done in the night time; but as soon as they knew it, they came in multitudes to Caesarea, and interceded with Pilate many days that he would remove the images;

and when he would not grant their requests, because it would tend to the injury of Caesar, while yet they persevered in their request, on the sixth day he ordered his soldiers to have their weapons privately, while he came and sat upon his judgment-seat, which seat was so prepared in the open place of the city, that it concealed the army that lay ready to oppress them; and when the Jews petitioned him again, he gave a signal to the soldiers to encompass them routed, and threatened that their punishment should be no less than immediate death, unless they would leave off disturbing him, and go their ways home. But they threw themselves upon the ground, and laid their necks bare, and said they would take their death very willingly, rather than the wisdom of their laws should be transgressed; upon which Pilate was deeply affected with their firm resolution to keep their laws inviolable, and presently commanded the images to be carried back from Jerusalem to Caesarea.

2. But Pilate [afterwards] undertook to bring a current of water to Jerusalem, and did it with the sacred money, and derived the origin of the stream from the distance of two hundred furlongs. However, the Jews  were not pleased with what had been done about this water; and many ten thousands of the people got together, and made a clamor against him, and insisted that he should leave off that design. Some of them also used reproaches, and abused the man, as crowds of such people usually do.

So he habited a great number of his soldiers in their habit, who carried daggers under their garments, and sent them to a place where they might surround them. So he bid the Jews himself go away; but they boldly casting reproaches upon him, he gave the soldiers that signal which had been beforehand agreed on; who laid upon them much greater blows than Pilate had commanded them, and equally punished those that were tumultuous, and those that were not; nor did they spare them in the least: and since the people were unarmed, and were caught by men prepared for what they were about, there were a great number of them slain by this means, and others of them ran away wounded. And thus an end was put to this sedition.

[And after these winter events]

3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

So we see, that not even  the timing of Josephus appears to allow us an entry into Jerusalem except following the winter months quartering of the Romans, which occurs only after Sukkot. 

 And His arrival must be prior to the moving out of those same soldiers from Jerusalem after Passover ends.

Where are all the centuries of the anti-Christian quotes from rabbis or Roman historians or whomever about how that  Jesus came in the fall, but his disciples wrote that He came in the Spring and "ha ha ha", etc.  THEY DON'T EXIST! Why is it only in 2008's BAR we read such?   

It seems as if there are just two primary camps on the historical witness of the Gospel Accounts. They are either to be believed, or they aren't. 

Even the very idea of the split of a Messianic arrival of Jesus as being a deception perpetrated for nearly 2,000 years because it really happened the prior fall and in the wrong month, makes no sense...unless it is viewed under the possibility as being done with malicious intent and (anti-missionary) agenda.   But we will presume that such is not the case.

 If Jesus had a triumphal entry in the Fall months and fizzled, and was killed the next Spring, the Mishnah and the Targums would have been all over it like feathers on a chicken.  

It is extremely historically literarily ludicrous to even suggest that such a story could have been passed down through history without even a whimper from the Jesus-hating Jews -- from Christ's time to this. 

[archaeologist]

i am going to go with brianroy and his work on this one.  thanks for saving me the research time.

one comment, when looking at scholars or experts one must consider the source, their beliefs or unbeliefs, their bias, do they tend to agree with the Bible or not.

to accept someone just because he is a scholar or a professor of religious studies without discernment is just not proper research.  brianroy makes the best point when he states:  why does this now appear in the 2008 BAR?  surely someone prior to this year would have stumbled across the same idea.

there is no argument in antiquity which resembles chilton's.  if there were, we would have heard about it by now as it would have surfaces in somneone's research paper or dissertation, or book.

[falasha]

Article in the Mar/Apr issue by  Bruce Chilton

I would like to see some opinions on this hypothesis.

See BAR Mar/Apr page 28

His premiss seems to center on that the gospels were written to accomodate understanding instead of being eyewitness accounts of the events portrayed or being recorded by gathering information from eye witnesses as in the case of Luke.

He calls it 'Liturgical logic' over Historical logic' but to me that is still saying the gospels are not truthful accounts of these events.

Opinions? 

My opinion is: I agree that the New Testament is Liturgical and not Historical. BUT I also think that the Old Testament is historical and Christians tend to think of both in the same light.

[archaeologist]

I agree that the New Testament is Liturgical and not Historical.

1.  why?

2. what purpose wold it serve if it was liturgical only?

3.  how did they write the N.T. if it is not historical?  make upo a bunchof fables?

4. Who would have written these words?

5.  when was it written then?

falasha-- don't make up statements then leave out the details.  show proof and evidence for your belief.  the above questions will be a start.

[falasha]

I agree that the New Testament is Liturgical and not Historical.

1.  why?

2. what purpose wold it serve if it was liturgical only?

3.  how did they write the N.T. if it is not historical?  make upo a bunchof fables?

4. Who would have written these words?

5.  when was it written then?

falasha-- don't make up statements then leave out the details.  show proof and evidence for your belief.  the above questions will be a start.

OK.
1. An opinion was asked for - not a statement of fact.
2. The purpose it serves is obvious; control of the unwashed.
3. The NT was written the by the same method news is evaluated today.
4. Who? Anyone inspired by the words of Christ and His unique outlook on rightousness (the same way we are inspired today).
5. When? Apparently between 40 - 125 A.D.

But what you are looking for, Archaeologist, is what is in my heart; is it not? Do I love the Lord? Very much so. He has freed my daughters and I from the bondage I have witnessed with my own eyes. It is hard for any man to understand the gratitude we females have for His sacrifice. So, before you question my allegiance, please open your mind and let go of your legalisms.