faith or evidence

[archaeologist]

While this is not the best scholarship, I have found in many cases, Bullinger's interpretations fit Old Testament stories to a tee. I bought his book from a Christian organization.

how do we know he didn't just fit the biblicalstory to his theory and maniopulated the names to get the desired results?  hovind is the only 'christian' i know of who even thinks about that aspect.

Once I cracked the Bible cosmic myth code,

there is no such code. i have never heard of one in over 40 years of studying the Bible.

David and Gilgamesh were the same cosmic representations of Akkadian king Naram Sin, as best as I can tell.

far from it as most people make out gilgamesh to be the babylonian/sumerian noah.

I am convinced of my theory because it answers so many questions and eliminates anomalies

so is everyone else of their theories, so does a revised egyptian chronology.

them that believe Judeo-Christianity was an astro-religion based on zodiac finds in synagogues.

well that is a mis-interpretationof what they find

[Michael]

While this is not the best scholarship, I have found in many cases, Bullinger's interpretations fit Old Testament stories to a tee. I bought his book from a Christian organization.

how do we know he didn't just fit the biblicalstory to his theory and maniopulated the names to get the desired results?  hovind is the only 'christian' i know of who even thinks about that aspect.

Once I cracked the Bible cosmic myth code,

there is no such code. i have never heard of one in over 40 years of studying the Bible.

David and Gilgamesh were the same cosmic representations of Akkadian king Naram Sin, as best as I can tell.

far from it as most people make out gilgamesh to be the babylonian/sumerian noah.

I am convinced of my theory because it answers so many questions and eliminates anomalies

so is everyone else of their theories, so does a revised egyptian chronology.

them that believe Judeo-Christianity was an astro-religion based on zodiac finds in synagogues.

well that is a mis-interpretationof what they find

The problem with revised Egyptian chronology is that it is not supported by Assyrian records nor radiometric dating. My theory does not have that problem. I use exactly what the archaeologist's claim is true about dates and locations of cities and events.

Zodiacs are in synagogues. It is not a mis-interpretation.  Feel free to google for the many images on the web. In fact BAR did an article on them.

I don't use Bullinger's results, just his redition on occasion. I use it to explain OT stories, while he uses it to explain NT stories. I also know what the Arabic names were and what they meant, and I use a concordance to figure out the closest Hebrew name which is how I hit upon Bullinger's reasoning. i.e. I re-created his work, and discovered where he was right and where he was wrong.

The reason why you never knew about the cosmic code is that I just discovered it a few years back. That would seem apparent.

Actually that is way way incorrect about Gilgamesh as Noah. Gilgamesh was a king who was told the story about the flood. He never loaded his family unto a ship. It is apparent you have never actually read the myth and have just read someone else's incorrect opionion. The flood narrative was added to the story of Gilgamesh and was not in the earliest Early Bronze Age text.  Utnapishtim, a charcter in a later Gilgamesh version is the one equated to Noah, not Gilgamesh.

[archaeologist]

i haven't replied to you because of this statement:

The reason why you never knew about the cosmic code is that I just discovered it a few years back. That would seem apparent.

you discovered it hmmm, sorry you would have to do better than that.  allyou want is to sell your book yet you give no reason why we should.  start putting up something credible instead of hocus pocus. 

i put my article up in another thread, it was rejected by BAR but accepted by another magazine for publication. at least you can present more than just comments.

another reason i do not want to answer you is for this reason:

Zodiacs are in synagogues. It is not a mis-interpretation.  Feel free to google for the many images on the web. In fact BAR did an article on them

i am not going to do your work for you, you are taking that position the burden is upon you not me to find evidence to back you up.  i do not ask you to do my work so why should ask me or anyone else?

i already  know i can do that but i wouldn't have a clue if we hit the same information and i wouldn't have a clue as to where you were drawing your conslusions.

i was pm'd that some of my comments weren't on the scholarly level this forum was looking for, well i submit that anyone who does not put links and references when they take a position to support that position is less scholarly than what i have been saying.

Actually that is way way incorrect about Gilgamesh as Noah. Gilgamesh was a king who was told the story about the flood. He never loaded his family unto a ship. It is apparent you have never actually read the myth and have just read someone else's incorrect opionion

actually i have the gilgamesh epic (in both the akkadian and old babylonian versions), in the book 'The Ancient Near East' edited by james Pritchard and as i look through it, there is no mention of Gilgamesh being a king in either.

[archaeologist]

now the book, O.T. Parallels' by victor matthews and don benjamin, make reference to gilgamesh being a tyrant but that is only in their introduction and i do not see it mentioned anywhere in the epic itself.

[Michael]

i haven't replied to you because of this statement:

The reason why you never knew about the cosmic code is that I just discovered it a few years back. That would seem apparent.

you discovered it hmmm, sorry you would have to do better than that.  allyou want is to sell your book yet you give no reason why we should.  start putting up something credible instead of hocus pocus. 

i put my article up in another thread, it was rejected by BAR but accepted by another magazine for publication. at least you can present more than just comments.

another reason i do not want to answer you is for this reason:

Zodiacs are in synagogues. It is not a mis-interpretation.  Feel free to google for the many images on the web. In fact BAR did an article on them

i am not going to do your work for you, you are taking that position the burden is upon you not me to find evidence to back you up.  i do not ask you to do my work so why should ask me or anyone else?

i already  know i can do that but i wouldn't have a clue if we hit the same information and i wouldn't have a clue as to where you were drawing your conslusions.

i was pm'd that some of my comments weren't on the scholarly level this forum was looking for, well i submit that anyone who does not put links and references when they take a position to support that position is less scholarly than what i have been saying.

Actually that is way way incorrect about Gilgamesh as Noah. Gilgamesh was a king who was told the story about the flood. He never loaded his family unto a ship. It is apparent you have never actually read the myth and have just read someone else's incorrect opionion

actually i have the gilgamesh epic (in both the akkadian and old babylonian versions), in the book 'The Ancient Near East' edited by james Pritchard and as i look through it, there is no mention of Gilgamesh being a king in either.

It us from your source on Gilgamesh I got my information. I suggest your use it for something besides a doorstop. Gilgamesh is listed on the Sumerian king list also.  Your book  states, "For Gilgamesh, king of the broad-marted Uruk"  ( iv line 31)


The Ancient Near East. Volume I. Ed. James B. Pritchard. Princeton University Press, 1973. Page 49

BAR magazine did articles and ran photos of zodiacs, one is located at
Biblical Archaeology Review September/October 2000 Vol.26 No.5 page 54.

Consult the archives if you don't want to google.

[archaeologist]

okay i finally see that reference but that is in the old babylonian versin not the one immediately oprevious to it starting on page 40.

so we could say there was some embellishment going on here.

Gilgamesh is listed on the Sumerian king list also

so is the flood, are you goingto acept it as a real event as well or dismiss it as another fairy tale?  if you dismiss the flood then i can dismiss gilgamesh as being a king.

[Michael]

okay i finally see that reference but that is in the old babylonian versin not the one immediately oprevious to it starting on page 40.

so we could say there was some embellishment going on here.

Gilgamesh is listed on the Sumerian king list also

so is the flood, are you goingto acept it as a real event as well or dismiss it as another fairy tale?  if you dismiss the flood then i can dismiss gilgamesh as being a king.

There is a lot of embellishment in the tale and Tigay documents the changes in his book. The Flood was one such embellishment. I don't believe the tale of Gilgamesh is factual, it is a cosmic myth. I don't believe it is any more factual than Alice in Wonderland, although the story has a historical background with characters being based on real characters and issues of its day. In Alice, the War of the Roses was the background for that story. In the Wizard of Oz (fictional too) the cowardly lion was based on the real life person of William Jenning Bryan. In Gilgamesh the character and issues of the day is set about Naram Sin, an Akkadian King. Likewise I believe the earliest texts about David/Bethsheba/ Uriah were based on the politics of Naram Sin and his love for the goddess Ishtar.

However, I see the texts as being composed by two different camps. The David story was composed by those who approved of Sin's doings, while Gilgamesh was meant to be a criticism of him. Similar to the way Shakespeare would be critical of his current monarchy by making sport of previous ones.

[archaeologist]

In Alice, the War of the Roses was the background for that story. In the Wizard of Oz (fictional too) the cowardly lion was based on the real life person of William Jenning Bryan

those are new ones tome.  never heard that before.

I don't believe the tale of Gilgamesh is factual, it is a cosmic myth.

you are going othave to give me a coles notes explanation as to your cosmic myth concept as i don't buy into it and you have me at a disadvantage.

if you think people just looked at the stars and wrote down their stories then i would have to say that is far fetched.  they would have to know what they are looking at  and for to get any story from the heavens.

[Michael]

In Alice, the War of the Roses was the background for that story. In the Wizard of Oz (fictional too) the cowardly lion was based on the real life person of William Jenning Bryan

those are new ones tome.  never heard that before.

I don't believe the tale of Gilgamesh is factual, it is a cosmic myth.

you are going othave to give me a coles notes explanation as to your cosmic myth concept as i don't buy into it and you have me at a disadvantage.

if you think people just looked at the stars and wrote down their stories then i would have to say that is far fetched.  they would have to know what they are looking at  and for to get any story from the heavens.

If you go to the "other" section of this forum I have started a thread on the "cosmic myth." I explain what I mean by the term. You are correct, it is more than just writing down stories about the stars. It is a blend of fact and fiction.

[archaeologist]

my pointis becoming, how did they now what to see?  where did they get the idea to read into the stars such stories? 

it had to come from somewhere else as it is very difficult in finding a story looking at a bunch of twinkling lights, if these people were as uneducated and ignorant as some archaeologists and scholars like to think.

so obviously the cosmic myth had to have some terrestrial origin or it wouldn't work.

[Michael]

my pointis becoming, how did they now what to see?  where did they get the idea to read into the stars such stories? 

it had to come from somewhere else as it is very difficult in finding a story looking at a bunch of twinkling lights, if these people were as uneducated and ignorant as some archaeologists and scholars like to think.

so obviously the cosmic myth had to have some terrestrial origin or it wouldn't work.

You are correct. Esssentially any group of stars can be made into any shape.

Why is one chain of stars a snake and another a river? Some of the aspect of the stories have to do with the seasons and the cardinal points.  We can speculate on a number of items, i.e. virgin sacrifice before the spring, blinding of the sun god at the winter solstice, a rebirth at the vernal equinox, and creation at the summer solstice.  Stars for judgement perhaps at the weighing of the crops at harvest, flood stories at the time of spring floods.

The Greeks have a cosmic myth in their stars.

The myth incorporates two aspects, the constellation itself as the overall setting, and each star being a detail in the story. Stars also indicated cities and sometimes people.

Let me give you an example from my own text. I play devil's advocate with myself and question what I write to find answers. There appears to be a lot of text which has nothing to do with cosmic myths. Not every story in the Bible relates to a cosmic myth. Some text is actual history with no myth, some text is a mixture of history and myth, while other text appears to be story bound.

Rachel as Capella

Jacob enters the new constellation and sees flocks of sheep in Auriga, the constellation of the shepherd. He first sees Rachel (means ewe or she-sheep)  attending a flock and falls in love with her as the brightest star in the constellation. The brightest star in Auriga is Alioth or Capella, which means “she-goat”.   It would seem the ancient Hebrew/Canaanite constellation differed slightly, opting for a she-sheep instead of a she-goat.
Leah

Leah would be the star known as Haedi to the Latins. It was coupled with Capella and together the Arabs knew them as Al Jadyain, “The Two Young He Goats”. They were also known as “The Lambs”. Allen also speculates some of the names for this star may have been derived from the name Al Said al Thani, “The Second Arm”. 

“This has been known as Capella, the Little She-goat, since at least the times of Manilius, Ovid, and Pliny…” Allen on page 88 claims Capella was also known as the” Shepherd’s Star,” but places that title in more recent times.”

 “Propertius wrote of them, in the singular, as Haedus: Albumasar, as Agni, the Lambs; the Arabians knew them as Al Jadyain, the Two Young He Goats, and Bayer, in the plural Capallae. ? appeared in the original edition of the Alfonsine Tables as Sadatoni;...strangely changed from either Al dhat al ‘In?n,  the Rein-holder, or more probably from Al said al Thani,  the second arm.

In astrology:

Capella. Influence: Love of movement. Fast, love of speed, freedom without aggression. Strength and determination, quick to take action. Ptolemy—the female star in the Charioteer; influence of Mercury & Mars With Haedi their rising in October was a dreaded signal for the stormy season. Navigation would cease.

Goats vs. Sheep
The question one would ask is what happened to the goats in Rachel’s tale? Why is she a she-sheep instead of a she-goat?  My speculation is that the original story was altered slightly when the equinox passed into Aries. By making Jacob’s wife into a she-sheep, this would make her the mother of Aries. I would suggest her original name was Ya‘el, meaning “mountain goat” (y‘l) and was cleverly altered to Rachel (r x l).
In Hebrew the words are very similar.

[archaeologist]

Why is one chain of stars a snake and another a river? Some of the aspect of the stories have to do with the seasons and the cardinal points.  We can speculate on a number of items, i.e. virgin sacrifice before the spring, blinding of the sun god at the winter solstice, a rebirth at the vernal equinox, and creation at the summer solstice.  Stars for judgement perhaps at the weighing of the crops at harvest, flood stories at the time of spring floods.

not to dismiss you whole post  but i will stop here and focus on thepointi am making. if someone saw the story in the stars or designed a story in the stars then they had to have previous knowledge of the event or events. 

they would not be looking up at the stars and go 'eureka! i have found something.'  they would 1. be reading into the stars what they wanted, 2. making their own design to fit what they already knew, 3. basing what they were doing upon a real story

so the gist of it is, there really isn't a cosmic myth but a designed story based upon the truth they already knew about and had taken place here on earth already.

so the evidence tells us that the story didn't start with the stars but was added to by observers of different events, as or after they took place, throughout time.

[Michael]

Why is one chain of stars a snake and another a river? Some of the aspect of the stories have to do with the seasons and the cardinal points.  We can speculate on a number of items, i.e. virgin sacrifice before the spring, blinding of the sun god at the winter solstice, a rebirth at the vernal equinox, and creation at the summer solstice.  Stars for judgement perhaps at the weighing of the crops at harvest, flood stories at the time of spring floods.

not to dismiss you whole post  but i will stop here and focus on thepointi am making. if someone saw the story in the stars or designed a story in the stars then they had to have previous knowledge of the event or events. 

they would not be looking up at the stars and go 'eureka! i have found something.'  they would 1. be reading into the stars what they wanted, 2. making their own design to fit what they already knew, 3. basing what they were doing upon a real story

so the gist of it is, there really isn't a cosmic myth but a designed story based upon the truth they already knew about and had taken place here on earth already.

so the evidence tells us that the story didn't start with the stars but was added to by observers of different events, as or after they took place, throughout time.

In many cases you are correct. I have been able to find either a historical or quasi-historical event to connect to the cosmic myth. However in some cases the history is only faintly historical such as the story of Adam and Eve. This was based on Akkadian creation story which was perceived as factual. Eden was the ancient civilization of Dilmun. The characters of Adam and Eve are based on the constellations. They are not historical. The story of Cain and Abel is not historical either, but was simply created to show how Cain fathered civilization. There was a Great Famine which drove asians into Egypt. That aspect is true, however the characters in the story of Joseph and Moses do not seem to be historical except for the pharaoh.

[archaeologist]

you are going to have to show proof for those comments.  a blind dismissal is not accepted as anyone cando that.  you need to show cause here as denial is not an argument.

[Michael]

you are going to have to show proof for those comments.  a blind dismissal is not accepted as anyone cando that.  you need to show cause here as denial is not an argument.

Do I really need to? Anyone who believes the Adam and Eve story should have their head examined, prove they are sane and then supply ample proof that, both biological and historical that the garden story is true, plus diss all science in proving evolution is false. The Cain and Able true? No way. If you believe it, please prove it. Show me the body.

The Great Famine is an known historical event. I don't need to prove it anymore then I need to prove the Civil War.

Comparative creation myth link:

http://www.hope.edu/bandstra/RTOT/CH1/CH1_1A2A.HTM

http://www.accuracyingenesis.com/eve.html

http://www.bibleorigins.net/InannaDumuziPictures.html

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/cain.html#genesis

The story of Cain and Abel is similar to that of Romulus and Remus. One brother kills another and builds a city.

http://proverbs.bestlatin.net/audioproverb/2007/06/fratrum-inter-se-irae-sunt-acerbissimae.html

http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/classics/dunkle/courses/earlyrom.htm