Luke 2:2's census and Codex Siniaticus 1's word order, etc.

[Michael]

I had the same belief about Jesus, but dismissing him as entirely fictional, instead of in part, creates problems. James was known as the flesh and blood brother of Christ. Now if Jesus was fictional, then James and his writings must be fabrications. If they are fabrications, then Paul's reference to James must also be fabrication as was Paul. We know have three fictional characters, two of which seemd to have wrote stuff and are not connected to myth as was Jesus. For me the logical conclusion was that Jesus was a real man of which myths were created to make him look like a messiah.

James was real and a prophet with his brother Simon.  Both were sons of Judas the son of the same Zechariah we read about in Luke 1 (e.g. Judas the son of Ezekias as garbled by Josephus's Flavian editors in an anachronistic interpolation, Ant.17.10.5).  In another garbled anachronistic interpolation, the Flavian editors removed the brothers James and Simon the sons of Judas from the history by having them executed for no apparent reason, apart from eliminating them from the history. (Ant.20.5.2) .  They were in fact the successors to Judas as leaders of the prophetic 'Christian' movement of the Spirit started by the prophet Judas, who of course the Flavian editors made into the villain wherever they could.  Paul was the product of the 'Pauline' editors as a substitute for James, along with Jesus a substitute for Judas.  Jesus just had to have that name to go with the editor's message of the cross.  It was James who wrote the original versions of Luke and Acts, the latter being autobiography, probably written for Ephaphroditus, Nero's Greek secretary.

Interesting Geoff, but I have a problem with Paul being a substitution for James. Their philosophies were opposed to each other. I concur that Judas of the Bible is fictional and was added for political reasons, i.e. to slander the name.

Dr. John Ankerberg- what a joke that guy is. I remember one week he was debating atheists. The atheists claimed the Jews were not monotheistic because the word elohim is plural. Dr. John Ankerberg argued it was singular. The very next week he was debating Moslems on the show who claimed there was no evidence for the trinity in the Old Testament, to wit Dr. John Ankerberg replied that elohim is plural and implies the 3 gods of the trinity.

I stopped watching him after that. He is not reliable.

[GeoffHudson]

Interesting Geoff, but I have a problem with Paul being a substitution for James. Their philosophies were opposed to each other. I concur that Judas of the Bible is fictional and was added for political reasons, i.e. to slander the name.

Dr. John Ankerberg- what a joke that guy is. 

Michael
Thanks for your view on Ankeberg.

Ask yourself what year did 'Paul' disappear into oblivion apparently in Rome?  Now ask yourself what year James was executed in Palestine by Ananus the high priest son of Ananias?  Are both dates estimated at 62 CE?  I suggest that the ship supposedly carrying Paul to Rome travelled in the opposite direction to Caesarea carrying James who had come from Rome.  The wind direction when there was a supposed shipwreck, was north westerly.  This couldn't have been better if one was travelling to Italy, but very difficult for a grain ship travelling from Alexandria to Caesarea.  The ship wasn't wrecked as supposed by the romancer of an editor, but it wintered in the only sheltered port available of Paphos on Cyprus.  Paul is like someone without beginning of days nor end of time.  Unusually for a Jew, he is the son of no-one. 

The editors made James appear more traditionally Jewish, a keeper of the law when in fact he was a prophet of the Spirit.  They created Paul to proclaim the message of Jesus and the cross and to take this message to Gentiles.  There was no mission to Gentiles, and all the NT documents were originally written in and for a Jewish environment.  Jesus going to Gentile areas is total fiction. 

Jesus and John are names the editor employed angels to ascribe to two fictional characters.  While Judas may be synonymous with Jew, and a hate name according to Eisenman, the character was too much of a bogey man to be unreal, re-sufacing as a memory in the Gospel of Judas for example -see my comments here

Robert Eisenman: Gospel Fiction and the Redemonization of Judas -  Media on  The Huffington Post.

[GeoffHudson]

Michael

The prevailing winter wind of Acts 27.14 was actually from the north-east which would not have been a problem for a ship sailing to Italy, but it certainly would have been a problem for a grain ship sailing to Caesarea - no doubt carrying grain for James' starving priestly friends (prophetic Essenes) who had been robbed of their food by the priests as at Ein Gedi.

If Ankeberg is a joke, what does that make our 'peace' friend who rants against us two here?  He claims that Brianroy is a part of his real name, but he can't prove it.  Actually, I think he derived it from one of his ancesters on a genealogy list he consults.  But how the words flow freely from his backside!  I only know one other person like that connected with biblical studies, and it says much about this list.  I wonder what Gabriel will have him say next.

[Brianroy]

Geoff writes,

 Now I would like some real evidence.    My name is Geoff Hudson - see my race position 146 in the Huncote Hash cross country.

146 782 Geoff Hudson Nuneaton V 58:44

Let's say that we have a skeptic who doesn't believe Geoff exists.  For all we know, this is a fabricated name . 

We could go to Nuneaton, Warwickshire, UK...population 65,000 plus...north of Bedworth and WSW of Hinckley, about as deep in the heart of England as you could want to get,  and inquire about his existence.

 But why would a skeptic even care?   What's the point?  The skeptic would rather sit back, and muse and snicker that Geoff doesn't exist.

So Geoff posts his picture.  "See, this is me."

The skeptic goes, "ah, somebody's uncle".

So Geoff posts statements of people who say he exists.

The skeptic goes, "ah, you can tell the way they's'n written...they's all by the same hand!"

So Geoff posts his home address and phone number. 

 The skeptic goes, "ah, some kid stealing someone else's name and such out of a phone book." 

 So Geoff publishes his tax identification, his bank account numbers, and other little goodies to prove he exists.

 The skeptic goes, "ah, probably stole them." 

 In the mean time a curious figure smiles and strokes his chin in glee, and a week later, Geoff ceases to exist in his bank statement, his tax identification, his home address, and even his Cross-Country membership...the victim of identity theft. 

The skeptic goes, "ah, see, I TOLD you he didn't ever exist.  Someone made him up!"


There are just some who view past historical figures from the skepticism as the hypothetical example used above.  Nothing...and I mean nothing you can do can "prove" your name if a person is determined not to believe you.  In fact, to a skeptic, I cannot prove that President George W. Bush is actually named George W.   To such a one, evidence, no matter how mountainous, is your wrongful interpretation. 

We have Geoff declare Luke 1 as a myth...but that James was real and a prophet with his brother Simon.     And hallucinations of hallucinations, he boldly declares:
 Paul was the product of the 'Pauline' editors as a substitute for James,
[in other words , Paul was really "James", and his own editors belittled James and called him "Paul"]
along with Jesus a substitute for Judas.
[In other words, Jesus didn't exist and die on a Cross, Judas did...well, at least according to Geoff].

  Jesus just had to have that name to go with the editor's message of the cross.  It was James who wrote the original versions of Luke and Acts....   

In other words, not only is Geoff gifted with this unknown evidence that Luke didn't write Luke, but that James wrote Luke and people called him by another name in some vast ancient conspiracy involving many thousands of people, all who kept mum about the real identity of the names of Jesus and Luke...including those hostile Jewish enemies in the Sanhedrin, and in Roman Government, and on and on the conspiracy list goes. 

 So, unless Geoff can provide us with a foundation of historical evidences, perhaps a couple dozen pages minimum and 50 legitimate source references, then only in the mind of Geoffrey Hudson, do we see that it was James who was really Paul, and Judas who was really Jesus.

 No credible historian supports such a view...not one.  No credible archaeologist supports such a view...not one.   

The name of Jesus Christ is that which deals with the MOST ATTESTED TO HISTORICAL AND INFLUENTIAL FIGURE IN ALL OF ANTIQUITY.   

Why don't we just pretend that Socrates was really a Jungian side of Plato?  That is, that Plato saw a reflection, and stared at it, until he (like young Jung when he stared at his grandfather's picture)  walked hand in hand with his master out into the fields and woods somewhere. 

Are we really asking this Biblical Archaeology (and history discussing) Forum to really go into such a myth making phase as that?  I sincerely hope not.

I ask Geoff to prove his Hudsonian NT  Mythology by starting his own thread and laying out his thesis, and to move off this "prove to me who you are" nonsense, when even Winston Churchill's grandkids couldn't live up to Geoff's double standards for "proving" an  identity.  Either that...or just let it go. 

Good grief! 

[Brianroy]

Sentinus Saturninus served his office from 744 to 748/749 A.U.C. on the Roman Calendar. 

In Against Marcion 3.13, Tertullian points us to Psalm 72:15,10 in regard to the Magi:

"And there shall be given to him the gold of Arabia" and again: "The kings of Arabia and Saba shall offer to Him gifts."  For the East generally regarded the Magi as Kings; and Damascus was anciently deemed to belong to Arabia, before it was transferred to SyroPhoenicia on the division of the Syrias (by Rome).

...Let those eastern magi wait on the new-born Christ, presenting to Him...the riches of Damascus without a battle, and unarmed.

...Jewish cavillers, in order to disconcert us, boldly PRETEND that Scripture does not hold that a VIRGIN, but only a young woman, is to conceive and bring forth. They are, however, refuted by this consideration, that nothing in the nature of  [an OTH / a Sign] can possibly come out of what is a daily occurence...."

What is being told us?  That at least from the road out of Damascus, the Magi came bearing gold, the spoil of the Jews living in Damascus, to offer gifts from that city to Yeshua.    Herod would have seen this gold, and the other gifts, because it is a spoil enough for a king to start a kingdom.

So now, we have a greater understanding of the political intrigue of Herod...who slaughtered Bethlehem not just because of a prophecy, but for the amount of gold that was being given to a new rival born within it.

The origin of the Magi was probably from Babylonia, in the area or region Hillel would come from.   

It is strange that Matthew, a tax-collector, goes at length to convict Herod I (in the writing of history) and the Pharisees (to their faces) of greed.   But notice what the tradition of the Jews are regarding Matthew, whom Jews rejected:

Babylonian Talmud: Tractate Baba Kamma Folio 113a  (Soncino edition)

MISHNAH.

NO MONEY MAY BE TAKEN IN CHANGE EITHER FROM THE BOX OF THE CUSTOMS-COLLECTORS  OR FROM THE PURSE OF THE TAX-COLLECTORS,  NOR MAY CHARITY BE TAKEN FROM THEM, THOUGH IT MAY BE TAKEN FROM THEIR [OWN COINS WHICH THEY HAVE AT] HOME OR IN THE MARKET PLACE.

There was an absolute prohibition of accepting any kindness of any sort from these people...a community excommunication of members living in their community.  For what reason?

MISHNAH. (folio 144a)

IF CUSTOMS-COLLECTORS TOOK AWAY A MAN'S *SS AND GAVE HIM INSTEAD ANOTHER *SS, OR IF BRIGANDS TOOK AWAY HIS GARMENT AND GAVE HIM INSTEAD ANOTHER GARMENT, IT WOULD BELONG TO HIM, FOR THE OWNERS HAVE SURELY GIVEN UP HOPE OF RECOVERING IT.

The tax-collector is viewed as a Judge of State Affairs, and as a thief (oft times a murderer also) under the cloak of law.  This was how Matthew in his pre-conversion days (as well as Zacchaeus and other tax-collectors) were viewed.  The only ones to look after them, were themselves, and sometimes what little charity they might have from State officials, etc.  It was a harsh existence.

In relation to Herod I in 5 B.C., it appears that Herod,  under cloak of law, must have took the position of sharing some of the wealth he accumulated from the massacre at Bethlehem, with some of the Romans overseeing the Census for purposes of taxation, as well as those "anathema" Jewish tax-collectors themselves (who well preceded Matthew).   That is the inference given us in the Mishna's approach to these kinds of Jewish State officials. 


But what about all that gold?  Didn't Joseph get any of it?
 Maybe, but not that much.   We know that Joseph took up Mary and Jesus right quick, and when he came back, he only had pennies enough to buy a poor man's offering after Mary's 33 days had passed (Leviticus 12:4,6-8;  Luke 2:22-24). 

 From October 27 plus 33 days is the end of November.  Yet Joseph did not go up right away to Jerusalem, he hesitated.  In all likelihood, Joseph arrived in Jerusalem when Hannukah overlapped with what day we now call Christmas, in 5 B.C.   It appears to be a Hannukahn style blessing upon Jesus by Simeon and Anna at the Temple (cf. Luke 2:25-39). 

Therefore, unlike the lunar eclipse that was expected in March of 4 B.C., Herod dies either at the end of November or the first days of December under a a kind of lunar eclipse that wasn't supposed to happen.  Whether it is a comet tail blackout, passing between moon and earth, or some other explainable speculation...I don't know.  For Josephus...this lunar eclipse was, like the lamb born of a cow in the Jewish War era, indeed, a miraculous (even incredulous) event passed on to him.

 
And

 As I calculated  in my post 01/07/08 9:43, after Mary had Jesus, the required legal observance of Torah (halakah), the 7 days of separation in Leviticus 12:2 / Luke 2:21  was fulfilled.  Hence, we see that when dating the birth era of Jesus, we also need to take our cue (even as Luke and other NT writers tell us) from Halakah...Religious Ritual Torah Law; because Joseph and Mary lived it to the jot and tittle.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We see now, with a better understanding of the proper dating of the NT (see my redating the NT thread) that Matthew of 55 A.D. actually fills in the chronology of 50 A.D. Luke.   And as we grow in the ability to sift the literary data from the general period, even retrospective history and traditions...if you know how to properly date and look, you will see that the answers just fall perfectly into place, as the picture of what was once an unmanageable jigsaw puzzle, forms perfectly into place. 

Peace.

[Brianroy]

Perhaps an after-thought.

The magi picked up their gold in Damascus, be it by letters of credit or as an offering from there...we don't know.

To Luke and Matthew, the significance of the Road to Damascus experience is probably...in that day...tied to the Bethlehem Star experience. 

For in the day-time, Saul (who later became Paul in the 40s when he went to the gentiles), as  Paul some 35 plus years after the Bethlehem star,  saw the Daystar of Christ on that Damascus road, and was blinded.  And as a Benjaminite, (a Judean), had his blindness lifted when this same Daystar, Christ, arose in his heart.   Hence both a literal and spiritual application, which the NT argues.

Just a thought tying in Damascus with the historic quote etc. of the last post.    Peace.

[Michael]

Interesting Geoff, but I have a problem with Paul being a substitution for James. Their philosophies were opposed to each other. I concur that Judas of the Bible is fictional and was added for political reasons, i.e. to slander the name.

Dr. John Ankerberg- what a joke that guy is. 

Michael
Thanks for your view on Ankeberg.

Ask yourself what year did 'Paul' disappear into oblivion apparently in Rome?  Now ask yourself what year James was executed in Palestine by Ananus the high priest son of Ananias?  Are both dates estimated at 62 CE?  I suggest that the ship supposedly carrying Paul to Rome travelled in the opposite direction to Caesarea carrying James who had come from Rome.  The wind direction when there was a supposed shipwreck, was north westerly.  This couldn't have been better if one was travelling to Italy, but very difficult for a grain ship travelling from Alexandria to Caesarea.  The ship wasn't wrecked as supposed by the romancer of an editor, but it wintered in the only sheltered port available of Paphos on Cyprus.  Paul is like someone without beginning of days nor end of time.  Unusually for a Jew, he is the son of no-one. 

The editors made James appear more traditionally Jewish, a keeper of the law when in fact he was a prophet of the Spirit.  They created Paul to proclaim the message of Jesus and the cross and to take this message to Gentiles.  There was no mission to Gentiles, and all the NT documents were originally written in and for a Jewish environment.  Jesus going to Gentile areas is total fiction. 

Jesus and John are names the editor employed angels to ascribe to two fictional characters.  While Judas may be synonymous with Jew, and a hate name according to Eisenman, the character was too much of a bogey man to be unreal, re-sufacing as a memory in the Gospel of Judas for example -see my comments here

Robert Eisenman: Gospel Fiction and the Redemonization of Judas -  Media on  The Huffington Post.

I take it you haven't read Eisenman's other work , "James the Brother of Jesus." Personally I believe Pail survived in Rome and went to Spain to live on Seneca's estate. But that is just speculation.

Brianroy,

The magi is the three stars in the belt of Orion which follows Sirius (the Star of the East) across the sky.  Herod is the constellation Orion itself. In the Book of Jasher, it was wise men who followed a comet and Nimrod (also Orion) who had a slaughter of an innocent attempting to kill the baby Abraham. It is just a myth.

“And when all the wise men and conjurors went out from the house of Terah, they lifted up their eyes toward heaven that night to look at the stars, and they saw, and behold one very large comet came from the east and ran in the heavens, and he swallowed up the four stars from the four sides of the heavens.
“And all the wise men of the king and his conjurors were astonished at the sight, and the sages understood this matter, and they knew its import.
“And they said to each other, [‘]This only betokens the child that has been born to Terah this night, who will grow up and be fruitful, and multiply, and possess all the earth, he and his children for ever, and he and his seed will slay great kings, and inherit their lands.[’]
“And the wise men and conjurors went home that night, and in the morning all these wise men and conjurors rose up early, and assembled in an appointed house.
“And they spoke and said to each other, Behold the sight that we saw last night is hidden from the king, it has not been made known to him.....

“And the king hearkened to Terah, and he did so and he gave him three days' time, and Terah went out from the king's presence, and he came home to his family and spoke to them all the words of the king; and the people were greatly afraid.
“And it was in the third day that the king sent to Terah, saying, Send me thy son for a price as I spoke to thee; and shouldst thou not do this, I will send and slay all thou hast in thy house, so that thou shalt not even have a dog remaining.
“And Terah hastened, (as the thing was urgent from the king), and he took a child from one of his servants, which his handmaid had born to him that day, and Terah brought the child to the king and received value for him.
“And the Lord was with Terah in this matter, that Nimrod might not cause Abram's death, and the king took the child from Terah and with all his might dashed his head to the ground, for he thought it had been Abram; and this was concealed from him from that day, and it was forgotten by the king, as it was the will of Providence not to suffer Abram's death.
“And Terah took Abram his son secretly, together with his mother and nurse, and he concealed them in a cave, and he brought them their provisions monthly.
“And the Lord was with Abram in the cave and he grew up, and Abram was in the cave ten years, and the king and his princes, soothsayers and sages, thought that the king had killed Abram.”

   The Book of Jasher. Posted at <Book of Jasher. Christian Classics Ethereal Library website.

[View from Here]

With respect to the Gospel of Judas and related matters, some readers of this forum might be interested in this article:

Jesus, Judas, and the Dead Sea Scrolls: peddling religious sensationalism in America | The News is NowPublic.com

[Brianroy]

Thanks View!

I had no idea that the promoters substituted Judas for the actual word "daimon"/ "demon". 

"...the entire thing was a hoax, based on the egregious mistranslation of basic words in the text. For example, the text uses the Greek word "daimon" to refer to Judas."
Jesus, Judas, and the Dead Sea Scrolls: peddling religious sensationalism in America by Charles Gadda


 Makes one wonder where the Bill O'Reilly of Acadaemia,  the one "who's looking out for us" has been, huh?

Thanks again, for the article link and the heads up answer.

Peace.

[GeoffHudson]

Thanks View!

I had no idea that the promoters substituted Judas for the actual word "daimon"/ "demon". 

"...the entire thing was a hoax, based on the egregious mistranslation of basic words in the text. For example, the text uses the Greek word "daimon" to refer to Judas."
Jesus, Judas, and the Dead Sea Scrolls: peddling religious sensationalism in America by Charles Gadda


 Makes one wonder where the Bill O'Reilly of Acadaemia,  the one "who's looking out for us" has been, huh?

Thanks again, for the article link and the heads up answer.

Peace.

I am he.

It all looks like Internet Infidels - "thanks again indeed"!  "Heads up indeed"! 

Charles Gadda isn't Charles Gadda, is it Jeffrey?  And you have deliberately misinterpreted the article to pretend that you are ignorant.  And the heads up is from Chrissy.   

All relevant to the topic of course.

[GeoffHudson]

I take it you haven't read Eisenman's other work , "James the Brother of Jesus." Personally I believe Pail survived in Rome and went to Spain to live on Seneca's estate. But that is just speculation.

Brianroy,

Living on Seneca's estate after Seneca died, supposedly by suicide, in 62 CE?  Really!

I have Eisenman's book, and have read it.  I like his methods. I disagree that Judas was ahistorical, but was in fact the real prophet of the New Testament - Judas was replaced in 'his place of leadership' in Acts 1.

It is interesting to see that my comments here are no longer on public view.
Robert Eisenman: Gospel Fiction and the Redemonization of Judas -  Media on  The Huffington Post

[Brianroy]

From the preserved quotation of Hegisippus, we read:

"The aforesaid scribes and Pharisees accordingly set James on the summit of the temple,

and cried aloud to him, and said: "O just one, whom we are all bound to obey, forasmuch as the people is in error, and follows Jesus the crucified, do thou tell us what is the door of Jesus, the crucified."

And he answered with a loud voice: "Why ask ye me concerning Jesus the Son of man? He Himself sitteth in heaven, at the right hand of the Great Power, and shall come on the clouds of heaven."

And, when many were fully convinced by these words, and offered praise for the testimony of James, and said, "Hosanna to the son of David," then again the said Pharisees and scribes said to one another, "We have not done well in procuring this testimony to Jesus. But let us go up and throw him down, that they may be afraid, and not believe him."

... So they went up and threw down the just man, and said to one another: "Let us stone James the Just."

And they began to stone him: for he was not killed by the fall; but he turned, and kneeled down, and said: "I beseech Thee, L-RD G-D our Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

And, while they were thus stoning him to death, one of the priests, the sons of Rechab, the son of Rechabim, to whom testimony is borne by Jeremiah the prophet, began to cry aloud, saying: "Cease, what do ye?

The just man is praying for us." But one among them, one of the fullers, took the staff with which he was accustomed to wring out the garments he dyed, and hurled it at the head of the just man.

And so he suffered martyrdom; and they buried him on the spot, and the pillar erected to his memory still remains, close by the temple.

This man was a true witness to both Jews and Greeks that Jesus is the Christ.

In this history of Hegesippus, preserved by Eusebius, and cut off here before Eusebius' own interpolation as to the year...we see an easy access to the roof of the Temple, or something of an equally elevated height next to it, considered as part of the Temple's summit. 

Until the revealing of the Temple scroll, the passage of Hegisippus remained as a not too plausible history for the modern historian to grasp.  Something was missing.  That something, was the Temple Scroll.

Originally, the Temple Scroll was a lengthy document once given by David to Solomon in I Chronicles 28:11ff.

11Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

 12 And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the L-RD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

 13 Also for the courses of the priests and the Levites, and for all the work of the service of the house of the L-RD, and for all the vessels of service in the house of the L-RD.
...etc.

  19 All this, said David, the L-RD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.   (KJV)

Some  rabbis have mistakenly attributed the Temple Scroll to Moses, when the Scriptures point to the origin, or first version, was by David their King.

One book, I heartily recommend as "required reading" is the Biblical Archaeology Review reader:  "Understanding the Dead Sea Scrolls" NY: Random House (c)1992.

on page 111, the eminent Yigael Yadin, quite unintentionally, and unknowingly  -- answers for us  the mystery of how James was brought up to the Temple Summit on Passover 55 A.D., and tossed over the wall, outside the court of the Levites ... and approximately where.
 

"The staircase, next to the Temple, is to be square-shaped, 20 cubits on a side, and located 7 cubits [14 feet] from the North-West side of the Heikhal, or Temple Building.

This would be an extraordinary structure -- 40 cubits [80 feet] high, ascending to the roof of the Temple, and completely plated with gold!"
-- Yigael Yadin


Thus we see how that one historical literary source vindicates another historical literary source. How that the mystery of James and those who threw him down, so easily ascended to the Temple's summit.   


At a height of 80 feet, James could easily be tossed 20 to 25 feet from the staircase.  This projection would be enough to toss James over the north cells of the Levitical court around the Heikhal. 


The Temple Institute: The Temple Mount: Bird's Eye Guide to the Temple Mount

If compared to the Temple Instsitute's Bird's eye view overlap of the Dome of the Rock...James'  skeleton should  be within 17 feet of  Dome of the Rock, from the 10 o'clock to 12:30 hour-hand positions of the Dome itself.

If the Muslims should ever feel the need to violate more Jewish holy soil, and dig in this area and find a skelton...hopefully it will still have a part of the stone still present in Hegesippus time, with some writing identifying the skeleton as James the Nazarene. 
 
Peace.

[Brianroy]

Manuscript resources link  from:

Center for the Study of New Testament Manuscripts

viewable images for further discussions on Luke and various NT documents



   Manuscripts - CSNTM




Peace.

-- Brianroy

[Brianroy]

Here is a lecture given at Hillsdale in 1996.  Although I disagree with the year given by its lecturer for the appearing of the "star" of Bethlehem, the article is something that still resonates these 12 years later.  I thought you'd also might enjoy it.


http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=1996&month=12

[Diane]

BrianRoy, sorry I could not find the page I copied your quote from.
BrianRoy reply #24
"Jesus being in swaddling clothes, having just been circumcised, the magi pay homage and leave…and later that night, so do Joseph, Mary, and Jesus."

Most believe the story that 3 wise men or 3 kings from the East followed a star that stopped over the stable in Bethlehem the night Jesus was born and presented him with gifts. However, Matthew’s account shows the event did not take place until Jesus was nearly two years old and the unnumbered men were neither wise nor kings. Interestingly the Greek word Luke used to refer to the infant in the manger is brephos which refers to a newborn or even an unborn. But the Greek word Matthew used for the child in a house is paidion which refers to a child old enough to begin learning to walk and talk.

The Greek word Matthew used is magos or magi. Who are "magi?" The New American Bible for Catholics footnote on verse 1-2 states: “Matthew's magi are astrologers.” Footnote vs 2: "We saw his star: it was a common ancient belief that a new star appeared at the time of a ruler's birth."
Common among the Babylonians and others. But not common among the Jews.

What part of the East were the magi from? Babylon is about 500 miles East of Jerusalem.
Word Pictures in the New Testament says: “Babylon was the home of astrology.”
The Imperial Bible Dictionary gives considerable information about the background of the magi:
“According to Herodotus the magi were a tribe of the Medes, who professed to interpret dreams, and had the official charge of sacred rites; they were, in short, the learned and priestly class, and having, as was supposed, the skill of deriving from books and the observation of the stars a supernatural insight into coming events, they came to be possessed of great influence, and never failed to be consulted on all great occasions. Whether there was a native class among the Babylonians who practiced the same learning and arts, or the Median tribe became naturalized also there, there can be no doubt that a class bearing the name of magi, and holding much the same position as among the Persians, existed in Babylon. Nay, so much did they appear to be at home there, that the word Chaldean came to be nearly synonymous with magus among the Greeks and Romans, and reference is also made in Scripture to the great account that was made among the Babylonians of that kind of mystic lore and assumed supernatural skill, for which the magi were renowned. Indeed, later investigations tend rather to make Babylon than Media and Persia the centre of full-blown magianism. ‘Originally, the Median priests were not called magi. . . . From the Chaldeans, however, they received the name of magi for their priestly caste, and it is thus we are to explain what Herodotus says of the magi being a Median tribe.’”

Most Bibles using the word magi in Matt. 2:1 state in their footnotes on the word: “The Greek term magi here describes a class of wise men and priests who were astrologers.” A similar statement is in several versions rendering magi as ‘wise men.’ The Amplified Bible though saying “wise men” next to those words puts [astrologers] in brackets. The New Revised Standard has “astrologers” in its footnote on this verse.

Rightly, then, the word magos at Matthew 2:1 was taken by the ancient readers of Matthew to refer to astrologers. Among them are Justin, Origen and Tertullian. Wrote Tertullian, for instance: “We know the mutual alliance of magic and astrology. The interpreters of the stars, then, were the first . . . to present Him [Jesus] ‘gifts.’” (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. III, p. 65) The name “Magi” became current “as a generic term for astrologers in the East.”—The New Funk & Wagnalls Encyclopedia, Vol. 22, p. 8076.
The New Testament by Charles B. Williams reads “star-gazers,” at Matthew 2:1, with a footnote in explanation: “That is, students of stars in relation to events on earth.” Fittingly then, modern English translations such as , An American Translation, The New English Bible, The New Testament in Modern English by J. B. Phillips, the New World Translation, and Wycliffes all read, at Matthew 2:1, “astrologers.”

Here I copied from Strong’s lexicon the definition of magos:
1) a magus
2. a) the name given by the Babylonians (Chaldeans), Medes, Persians, and others, to the wise men, teachers, priests, physicians, astrologers, seers, interpreters of dreams, augers, soothsayers, sorcerers etc.
b) the oriental wise men (astrologers) who, having discovered by the rising of a remarkable star that the Messiah had just been born, came to Jerusalem to worship him
c) a false prophet and sorcerer

The star stopped first over Jerusalem leading the men to King Herod. They asked him, "Where is the newborn king of the Jews?” Herod then consulted the Jewish priests who told the astrologers the prophecy of Isaiah 7:14 said he would be born in Bethlehem. Only after this visit with Herod does the ‘star’ lead the astrologers to Jesus who now lives in a house, not a stable. The result: Herod, furious that the astrologers didn’t come back, murdered every male child “two years old and under” in Bethlehem and its neighboring towns to protect his throne.

Who caused the astrologers to see a light in the sky they believed to be a moving ‘star’ that led them to Jerusalem? Who wanted Jesus dead before Herod knew of his existence? Why would Herod kill children up to 2 years of age if he only needed to kill a newborn? Because of the time of his birth which "he had ascertained from the magi." Clearly then, Jesus had been born some months or perhaps even more than a year, before the astrologers found him in a house. God intervened in this, Satan’s first attempt to kill Jesus. The traditional story is a lie, one of the 7 things that God hates. (Proverbs 6:16-19) The story of the astrologers and their star brings no honor to the Son or to his God and Father.