Jesus and the virgin birth text

[Brianroy]

On September 24, 2008, the Biblical Archaeology Review released this to its readers:


THE BIBLE AND ARCHAEOLOGY:
A NECESSARY PARTNERSHIP
A distinguished scholar argues in favor of a crucial alliance


This week in BAR online, Keith Schoville explains how the fields of Biblical and archaeological scholarship can benefit each other. The Professor Emeritus of Hebrew and Semitic studies at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, and co-host of the weekly radio program "The Book and the Spade" describes his own considerable experience conducting research in the Holy Land, as well as working with such giants as Yigael Yadin and the recently deceased Avraham Biran.

 From firsthand experience, he explains how valuable the Biblical texts are in the scientific search for historical truth and why this principal source of historical information on the Biblical era should not be overlooked by archaeologists. In this sometimes turbulent field, where interpretations are often influenced by the experience of the researcher and even general consensuses can change, the Bible, claims Schoville, "stands as a given."


BAR 34:05, Sep/Oct 2008
Archaeological Views: The Necessary Partnership of the Bible and Archaeology
By Keith N. Schoville

[edited down for context]

...My first trip to Israel was in the summer of 1965, with a group led by my mentor, Professor Menahem Mansoor. He had established the department of Hebrew and Semitic studies at the University of Wisconsin in 1956, in the exciting early years of the Dead Sea Scroll discoveries. He opened the eyes of his graduate students to the value of archaeology for textual studies.

One of Mansoor’s innovations in the newly established graduate program was to bring distinguished archaeologists and scholars to UW—Madison for public lectures and interactions with his students. As a member of the faculty and later chair of the department, I continued that practice.

Over the years I had the privilege to know and interact with archaeologists such as Yigael Yadin, Nahman Avigad, Binyamin Mazar, Eric and Carol Meyers, Jim Strange, Yigal Shiloh, Vassilios Tzaferis, Avraham Biran, Yohanan Aharoni, Anson Rainey, Kathleen Kenyon, Joe Seger, and the list could go on and on. I had the opportunity to work with Dr. Biran for several years at Tel Dan. David Ussishkin and Gabi Barkay were my mentors in the excavations at Tel Lachish.

Through the years, my interest in Bible and archaeology and their interrelatedness has continued. That is true today in my 13th year of retirement.

...I have witnessed the debates over the (non)publication of the Dead Sea Scroll fragments from Cave 4, the downgrading of “Biblical archaeology” and its recovery, the minimalist/maximalist controversy, the unending arguments over the City of David and whether or not we have evidence of a Davidic era.

So what have I learned?

Archaeology is a strange mix of science and art. The revolution in archaeological method that began with Flinders Petrie at Tel el-Hesi in 1890 continues today.

 It is the ongoing effort on the part of field archaeologists to apply the scientific method to the enterprise of controlled excavation methodology, which cannot be separated from increasingly refined dating techniques.

The thrill of discovery of both the mundane and the magnificent is really a minor aspect of the primary effort to establish chronological and, when possible, historical connections.

Because the Bible is the major source of historical information on the Biblical era, what it says cannot be ignored by the conscientious archaeologist. I fear that the intimate knowledge of the Biblical accounts that informed earlier generations of excavators has faded somewhat in the experience of younger archaeologists. That is, unfortunately, the result of the growing Biblical illiteracy of our times...

Since archaeological interpretation is in part art, and the interpreter is the artist, what that interpreter brings to his or her task has a bearing on the interpretive outcome.

 The moderating effect on this or that interpretation of a discovery is the general consensus that the archaeologist’s colleagues reach. However, even the consensus view may not remain unchanged.

A case in point is the inscribed ivory pomegranate, ascribed to the Solomonic era, which was authenticated by no less than Nahman Avigad. Yet today it sits under a cloud of suspicion that the inscription “(Belonging) to the priests, the Temple of [Yahwe]h” is not authentic; it is now deemed a forgery.


Through it all, the Bible stands as a given. Although it, too, is subject to an ongoing assault of changing interpretations, it still remains the major source of historical information for comparison with archaeological data as it is recovered. In the archaeological enterprise, the Bible cannot—nor should it—be ignored.

Although I have worked on excavations, I have never considered myself a field archaeologist; let appropriate honor be to those who are. Rather I prefer to think of myself as a “Biblical archaeologist.” And I look forward to the discoveries that will be made in the field this year and their possible connections to some incident, person or event written on the pages of the Bible.

[kattey]

Irenaeus' word is not to be trusted.  While assembling books for the New Testament, he was also destroying any writings on Jesus he did not agree with, including the Gnostic Gospels.  The historian Will Durant said the number of writings on Jesus were monumental.

At the same time the beginning of New Testament books were being assembled, people still believed in Greek and Roman gods and godesses.  And so to apply to Jesus characteristics of these gods, etc., would be to have elevated him to their level, which would have seemed proper to the Christian writers.

[Brianroy]

Kattey,

The historical data and veracity favors my view.  I'm sorry you feel that way.

Thanks.

[kattey]

Hi Brianroy

I didn't listen in Sunday school.  When I began studying English literature I was astounded at all the references to the Old and New Testaments and places named after Biblical sites--even the large number of given names that are Biblical.  I had to learn the Bible again.  The literature became much more enjoyable when I knew the references.  There are certain areas of study that are not understandable without a knowledge of the Bible.

Most of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons.  They believed in God but not organized religion*, but they knew their Bible.  It's said Abraham Lincoln learned to write well by copying from the King James Bible.   It is a shame that more people don't know their Bible, just to garner its wisdom if nothing else.

*I believe this could be because of the centuries of religious wars in England and Europe.  Millions were killed including their ancestors.  They wanted no part of that.

[Brianroy]

Matthew Chapter 1
Using Greek word pictures and reiteration.

Verse 16) :
Jacob then fathered Joseph,  {*1}
 the husband of Miriam, {*2}
out of whom was brought into being, Jesus: he who is said to be  {*3}
Christ.  

Verse 17) :
 The whole of all these  {*4}     [42]
generations, then, from Abraham until David are 14 generations; and from the David until the plucking up and removal to Babylon are 14 generations; and from the plucking up and removal to Babylon until the Christ are 14 generations.         

Verse 18) :
 Now concerning Jesus Christ:  His coming into being was in this way; Mary, the mother of Him, being betrothed by marriage contract to Joseph, formerly and before their coming together, she was sought out and inquired, and found to be having in the womb, out by the Holy Spirit.   {*5}

Verse 19) :
But Joseph, the man betrothed to her, being righteous and just, and not having in mind -- nor the will {*6}
-- to bring her alongside, to make a public show (of her), for the moment was willing to loose her away (by means of a divorce) secretly, and hide (her) swiftly, without notice.

Verse 20) :
And as he was increasingly growing in wrath and indignation while dwelling thoughtfully {*7}
 on these things:  Behold!  By a dream, the L-RD’s Angel was seen by him, saying
         ‘ Joseph, a legitimate offspring and son of David. 
                    Do not run away 
                    in fear, {*8}
           receive and take Miriam as your bride: for that which is
                    come into being in her is out of the Spirit, and Holy.


Verse 21) :
   And she will bring forth and bear a Son and you shall call forth
             His Name as Yeshua  [Jesus], for He will deliver and make whole,
             saving  His people from the sickness and death of their sins.’


Verse 22)   :
   This also came into being in order that it might be supplied abundantly and fulfilled, by that spoken with definite words -- the L-RD coming forth through the Prophet, {*9}
   saying,

Verse  23) :
   ‘Behold!  the virgin of marriageable age who has never known a man,
in the belly will hold and possess,  and will bring forth and bear a Son,
and they will call forth and summon the Name of Him, EMMANUEL:
the which is, being after the interpretation,
          ‘’In the midst of and among, was with us -- G-D.’’ {*10}

Verse 24) :
   And Joseph, being excited in mind and body, and being fully awoken from the sloth and weariness {*11}
   of his slumber, he set about and completed those actions in what manner or way (that was) expressly set and ordered him {*12}
   by the L-RD’s angel, and took possession of his wife;


Verse  25) :
   and did not completely know her until she brought forth and bore her Son, the Firstborn.    And he called forth and summoned the Name of Him:  Yeshua  [Jesus].”


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

End notes
    Prelude to Note 1 and 2 - The names of Joseph and Miriam are translated from their Hebraic originals, using Gematriac analytic methods and criteria, in order to show the intensity of what Matthew’s Gospel  was placing before the  Sanhedrin and Scribes as they would have been able to grasp the finer aspects of what Matthew was proclaiming to -- and among -- the people.  Cf. note 2.

1      {re: prelude}.      Joseph means “YH who is a (wine) cup or vessel.”   

2   {re:  Prelude}.  Miriam, in that context,  is found to mean “Distiller of the drops of myrrh.” 

What is missed by most theologians is the symbolism of the Gospel Message in Christianity that is contained in the very names of the Genealogy, that would NOT have been lost upon the elders and the scribes and many more at this Gospel’s release in Jerusalem in  May A.D. 55 to mid-56 A.D.

 For example, after the translation of genealogical names,  one might read Matthew 1:16 in this way:  “YH’s Heel then fathered and brought into being YH Who Is A (Wine) Cup Or Vessel, the husband of The Distiller Of The Drops Of Myrrh, out of whom was brought into being He Who Delivers And Makes Whole -- Saving His People From The Sickness And Death Of Their Sins: he who is said to be Messiah.” 

Such an understanding as the above, appears to be lacking among agnostic and atheistic scholars, because the prevalent academic attitude is unsympathetic or unbelieving skepticism as a predetermined outcome for any opinion or observation they render.  The art of an accurate linguistic interpretation is often lost upon them because they feel compelled to produce a biased outcome against Christianity on principle or for peer acceptance and advancement.   In John 15:19 we are told that "the world would love his own" and that the world finds it natural to hate the Christian, because as John 3:19 says, men (of the world) loved darkness rather than Light (which G-D is in I John 1:5) because their deeds (they practice and love practicing) were evil (ponera - morally and spiritually malicious by nature).

 
3      Legomenos.   Cf. with ta’ legomena in Luke 18:34 and Acts 8:6.

4     Pasai, which  encompasses the concept of wholeness in the definition of “all”.

5      This sentence as translated by the full Greek expression of word pictures, show that Miriam (Mary) was about to be taken up by her husband when she was discovered with child.  In all likelihood, it was either the appointed priest or it was  the advance ambassador of the betrothed, Joseph’s best man, who would have  the one who sought and inquired (as this verse tells us).  It is not held against Eli, Miriam’s father, nor against Miriam herself, that she is pregnant.  In fact, the conclusion points to Miriam as being part of a large household where she is never left alone.  It also indicates that she is the oldest of at least several daughters, and surrounded by overprotective aunts, or like female relatives.  If we read the passage correctly, there may be a suggestion that Miriam was sold to Joseph while as a child, prior to her reaching a state of maturity.  This is supported by the tone of the following verse, 19, in which Joseph is spoken in the manner of an old or mature individual, and Miriam as but a young girl.   
6     Boulomai -  is willingness, as found in the moment.  That “will”  which has intent and purpose and longevity, being a continuous and active expression, is “thelo” in the Greek.  Boulomai is a mindful will that can change with a mood swing.  This is exactly what was happening with Joseph.     
7    Enthumethentos   : en - meaning “in”, and thumos - the mind that is racing in agitation, indignation, anger, wrath, etc.  The scribes who are indignant, and think within how that Jesus blasphemes (Matthew 9:4), or those Pharisees who are hateful and indignant in their minds (Matthew 12:25) so as to call Jesus in league with Beelzebub, are further examples are the correctness of my translation of this verse.
8     Phobethes   -  to terribly frighten.  In the Classical Greek,  Phobeo was used to describe those so terrified, that they ran away out of their minds with fear.  The Hebrew “charada” is closely associated with this type of fear, which also is what is told the women at the Resurrection tomb in Matthew 28:5 - “Do not fear so as to run away!”
9     Isaiah 7:14
10     Actual literal translation of   Meth  emon  o Theos. 
        In this context, G-D is in the midst or presence of, but spoken in the prophetic passive “was with” / “meth”;  as if a future event given us in Isaiah 7:14,  already having taken place, can only have taken place with Jesus, because only then “was with and was in the midst of “ Israel,  THE G-D of Israel.  Cf. Matthew 26:58’s meta , how that  Peter sits “in the midst of”  the under-officers of the high priest, but not necessarily “joining fellowship with”…in such an application also, G-D will come “in the midst or presence of”, but NOT necessarily be familiar or immediately or easily recognized , even when in the  presence of, in the presence with,  or among.   
11     Diegertheis  -  “egeiro” which means ‘to rise up, to awake from sleep,’  -- intensified by “dia” -‘through’.  Mark and Luke use this descriptive word to tell of how deep a slumber Jesus was in during the raging of the wind and sea of Galilee (Mark 4:38; Luke 8:24); while John applies it to the intensity of the sea itself, as if awoken from the sleep of calmness (John 8:18).  This intensive of “egeiro” is  used again in 2 Peter, where Peter is trying to shake the sloth and slumber from the weary minds of those who believe, that they might intensely become awake to the message he  is imparting  before he dies (2 Peter 1:13, 3:1).
12      Prosetaxen    - to arrange by or through commands, and to set in order.  In Matthew 21:6, the disciples follow the command and instruction of this word,  set about to carry out the dictum: “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an a*s tied up with a colt, untie them and bring them about and lead them to Me.”  (Matthew 21:2) 

[kattey]

Thanks to all for this great discussion.  Especially on astrology.

I'm confused.  The Hebrew definition of alma is young maiden.  The Greeks forced 72 Jewish scholars about 300 BCE to go to Alexandria, Egypt to translate the Hebrew Torah into Greek.  The Bible says the scholars produced 72 exact copies of the Torah in Greek. I've read the Jews used the word alma, so any changes in words or meanings started with the Greeks.

It was Matthew who claimed the Jews said at Jesus' crucifiction "His blood be on us and on our children", which caused 2000 years of persecution of the Jews. 

It took hundreds of years to form the New Testament.  Who knows how many people dabbled in editing it?

Why did Jesus say on the cross My Lord My Lord Why have you forsaken me?  Did not he know he was going to be cruified? 

[Brianroy]

Kattey,
    On Novemeber 19, 2008,
              You wrote that you "didn't listen in Sunday School", and have some sort of association with Freemasons as conspirators behind
 "organized religion", if I understand your complaint correctly.  But if you're going to correct me, why tell me and the whole BAS Forum that you have no clue as to what you next  impart?    That is how your post comes off; to me, anyway.

Are you trying to say that the NT and the persecutions of the Jews was a 2000 year  "Freemason" conspiracy? 
Like with another Forum member's 2008 Bruce Willis obsession...
hey, that  Nicolas Cage flick...it's just a movie.


On January 18, 2009,
You  erred in believing those who pervert the history of Christianity saying that Christians persecuted Jews for 2000 years, which in the first two centuries A.D. is definitely a lie, and the reverse is the historical literary testimony.  Christians -- especially Hebrew / Israeli stock Christians -- were persecuted by Jews for some 300 years; with a definitive one sided persecution by the Jews --even in Diaspora, provoking
riots and martyrdoms  --  until the early 200s, without question.  That is historically correct, regardless of its political incorrectness to tell history as it really was.

[Further, a statement such as the above,  has no bearing on Israel today, and its unjust national and world persecutions it even now, still endures from its enemies and alleged friends. Israel must be supported by those who claim faith in the Bible, if they are at all followers of the Bible as a religious document andpart of their faith. To not do so, is wrong and hypocrisy. Thus endeth the sermon.]

You write that you enjoy astrology, which the apostles of Christianity and their immediate successors condemned, and appear rather more focused on what is error than upon a true and correct answer from the Bible.  That defines the bias you carry with you into examining the data, much to your disadvantage. 

It is likened to your having  a pair of very dark sunglasses that you feel you must put on  when reading and comprehending Biblical passages or NT history, failing to realize it is often as if then being  in a room with very little light to read by.  You hinder yourself in this way, it seems to me.
 
You further failed in differentiating the formation of the books of the New Testament from the acceptance of an actual final canon.  If there was so much editorializing over many centuries, in the manner you  have put forth, --as if whole chapters - sections -books were written -- how can you claim that Matthew's "blood on us and on our children" quote can even apply? 

When you say..."I'm confused."...you admit you need help, and then proceed to lecture from that confusion?  This tells us ... what?

How are you going to learn if you admit ignorance, but don't want to be taught -- and hence, escape out of that ignorance? 


Let me point out that NT  manuscript families, like the Patmos family of manuscripts, tell us that the NT is  clearly 95% or better a word for word transmission of the ancient text as it probably was.  The majority of the 5%  of the grey area, is quite often simply defined as either an expanded  translation upon the Greek or a work to this effect to convey the passage more effectively.   We can literally cut the 5% by 60-70%, and then again by another half until we reach the same 40 lines consisting of less than 400  words that are known to be added in to the texts, having once been marginal notes, with the exception of a word or two here or there that do not change the theology or the essential meaning of the text where they occur, by simple inter-familial comparisons.

Further, where any translation preceding a time period of Vaticanus or Sinaiticus (or what have you) is questioned, we can go to early patristics and see how they phrased the same quote. ..and you will thence find that you are complaining and quibbling about virtually nothing of value in regards to  any Christian Doctrine.

  If you're being offended in the NT, then it  is apparently based on misconceptions, misinformation, and a stubborness to not study either intensely or correctly, I'm sorry to say.

As for the LXX...Epiphanius relates that the LXX was created by 36 PAIRS of translators...which makes sense, because "out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses must every word be established" according to Mosaic Torah.

If you're interested in the history of the LXX, it is discussed at length in several places of Epiphanius's "Weights and Measures" at:

  http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/epiphanius_weights_03_text.htm

 and translated by Roger Pearse, Ipswich, UK, 2005.

[Brianroy]

 Kattey stated, on Jan 18, 2009:

Did not he [Jesus] know he was going to be crucified?... Why did Jesus say on the cross My Lord My Lord Why have you forsaken me?   

To answer Psalm 22:1, I will show that the answer is easily seen in dealing with two objections over Psalm 22:16's crucifixion phraseology,"they pierced my hands and my feet".

Objection 1.  The NT never cites this verse (Psalm 22:16).   

  John's approach to Scripture is often a subsumation of OT Scripture into the ministry of Jesus, as with the woman caught in the act of adultery showing he is YHVeH through the application of Jeremiah 17:13 (cf. Jer. 2:13), by direct inference. We do not need to know that Jesus wrote Sheqar {Falsehood] in the earth {denoting a temporary ruling or  instruction as if to children}, and then the names of the 23 Sanhedrin Katan members from oldest to youngest, because those in 57 A.D. reading or hearing the Gospel account less than 30 years after that very event would have already been familiar with scripture by memorization and regular readings,  customs, and inference, in ways lost upon us today. 

But in all fairness, tradition says that the  account was actually in Paul's Gospel, (but therefore confirmed by John and as many as 4 other apostolic witnesses as accurate, being accepted by him) the account being that scribed by Luke and later called the book  "to the Hebrews", which was delivered to John at Ephesus (probably by Mark) a month or so prior to the writing of John's Gospel.  But the effect is the same. Those of John's Churches in Asia were thoroughly versed in Jerusalem Temple and Mosaic  practices, as John himself still sacrificed Passover and performed his role in Priestly garb until he died (perhaps as late as early 98 A.D.).   

 Psalm 22 may be described as representing David (or any other who celebrated Pesach) as  looking at a Pesach lamb on a crucified spit, and singing in a prophetical manner or way about it.
 

Objection 2.  The Hebrew word in question for Ps. 22:16,   doesn't exist in the Hebrew as "pierced".

 This whole issue is over whether or not there was or was not a yod or a vav in the stroke of the masoretic pen.
 
Gleason Archer,Jr. was an editor and contributor to two Bible translations (NASV and NIV) and the two volume Theological Wordbook of the O.T., and author of an Old Testament Survey: Introduction.  He was a Harvard, etc., educator  and knowledgeable in the ancient languages of Hebrew, Ugaritic, Akkadian, Arabic, etc., being articulate in almost 30 languages.  He writes:

“The reading which best explains all the variants is to be preferred.  For example, Ps. 22:16 (Mat. 22:17) reads KR’Y  YDY  WRGLY, which as pointed by the Masoretes (Ka’  aRiY), means  “like a lion my hands and my feet”   (“they have pierced my hands and my feet,” KJV).  The Hebrew column in the Complutensian Polyglot reads K’RW vocalized as Ka’RuW,  which means “they have bored through.”   Which reading best explains the variants (in the case, the reading in the versions)?   Probably the second reading, for the LXX, the Peshi**a, the Vulgate, even Jerome’s Hebrew Psalter all read, “They have dug through” or “pierced”.   Symmachus rendered it as “seeking to bind”  (which does not clearly favor either K’RY  or K’RW)."   

Archer, Gleason L.,  Jr.   “A Survey of the Old Testament Introduction, expanded and revised (paperback)
Chicago: Moody Press,  © 1964, 1985, 1994; p.65.

In regard to Psalm 22:16 -

The root word of the verb under discussion (or contention in Psalm 22:16), is the verb  KaRaH (Kaf-Rosh-He): to dig, excavate, or dig through.


But let us approach it as if it were a yod and not a vav. 


“In Proverbs 16:27, it  [the verb KaRaH] is used figuratively for trapping a person with an evil plot or stratagem (Proverbs 16:27). In the Niphal it means ‘be dug’ (Psalm  94:13).

There is a different root, kara, meaning ‘to trade in’ ( a commodity), do business in; buy (Job 6:27 with ‘al, with dir. Acc., Deuteronomy 2:6, Hosea 3:2).”

Gleason Archer, Professor of  Old Testament and Semitic Languages
Theological Wordbook  of the Old Testament
Chicago: Moody, © 1980, Vol. I , p. 454

Proverbs 16:27  - “A worthless man digs up [Kaf-Rosh-He] evil.”
Psalm 94:13 – until is dug [Yod-Kaf-Rosh-He] the pit….”
 
Further, we find that 5/6HevPs supports the Christian copies of the Hebrew, and the "pierced" translation. 

In 2 Chronicles 7:18, and Jeremiah 24:13, it is a Covenant that also means that which was “cut asunder” [Kaf-Rosh-Tav-Yod).  That is, it refers to “the sacrifice that was exterminated and cut in two”.   The word picture goes back to that kind of everlasting covenant made between G-D and Abraham in Genesis 15:10, and passed through the sacrifices and covenanted with Abraham (vv.17-18).

In regard to these verses from Jeremiah and Chronicles:
  Jeremiah 24:13 speaks of the Mosaic Covenant with Israel the nation…
while 2 Chronicles 7:18 is specific, and separately done with David, and his lineage. 

That is, any Davidic Covenant or Messianic passage is forbidden by G-D Himself, in His words to Solomon, from being applied to the whole House of Israel as some wrongly may attempt to do with later prophets, such Isaiah, if they contend unity and consistency in interpreting OT passages .   

In Tertullian’s “Answer to the Jews”, twice he responds (in chapters 10 and 13)  with the fact that the “yod” was present in the verse by his wording.   He quotes Psalm 22:16 as saying:
“They exterminated my hands and my feet”   

In other words, it was clear that “bored through”, “dug through”, even “cut asunder” or “exterminated” was  the intent of the verse. 

In the crucifixion, the main nerve of the wrist is bored through and there is often little to no circulation to the hands, on top of permanent paralysis.   The ankles are also bored through, and beside nerve damage to the feet, circulation (by piercing the arteries) may also cease.

Hence, “they exterminated my hands and my feet”, may also be a testimony that these items (in regard to Jesus) gave the appearance of dead appendages during the crucifixion, (from having lost blood circulation) while also fulfilling Psalm 22:16's prophecy. 

So, even if you wish to have Jesus' hands "bound" like a lion or what have you, the "passion" march from Gabbatha to Calvary and the practice of tying in conjunction with the crucifixion piercings of wrists and ankles,  takes in that slant as well.  In either case, bound or pierced, Jesus still FULFILLS the prophecy. And knowing Psalm 22 as a Pesach / Passover Lamb Psalm, it is clear that a master rabbi like Jesus / Yeshua absolutely knew he would be crucified.

Jesus said,

 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.

Matthew 26:2

So why did Jesus know that he was destined to die in regard to Passover, and that it must be crucifixion?  Because fulfilling verses out of Psalm 22 required it. 
 

Peace.

[kattey]

Hi Brianroy

I didn't mean to upset you.  My study of the history of the Bible is different from yours.  I don't generally care about theology--it didn't sink in when I was a kid because I think it's okay for anybody to believe what they want.  I believe in the teachings of Jesus during hs lifetime.  When the Church takes over I cease believing.

When I referred to the Bible in literature, especially writers centuries back, the writers refer to biblical stories and their characters, and I was unable to make the connections.  For example, Dante's Inferno, many books of William Faulkner (I didn't know that in his book _Absalom_  the name was taken from one of King David's sons).  Then there is Milton's _Paradise Lost_.  Art and literature in those times were inseparable from the Bible.

We know Iraneas destroyed tens of thousands  of writings about Jesus.  He thought he had destroyed the Gnostic Gospels but in the 20th century they are found again.  The Church didn't have an exclusive on writings about Jesus.  All over the known world it seems everybody was writing about Jesus, some claiming he was divine and some not, and Iraneas wanted only writings that would help build the Catholic Church into an empire.  I've read that the names Matthew, Mark, Luke and John were arbitrary names chosen at random, although there does seem to be a provable historical trail of John.

I recently read an article in Bible Review about Matthew.  I am reading Biblical Criticism, which you probably don't read.  Matthew changed the meanings in Mark.  Whereas Mark had said Jesus was a carpenter and the son of Mary, Matthew (perhaps worried the reference to being the son of Mary might suggest illigetimacy) says Joseph was the father of Jesus and that Joseph was the carpenter.  These scholars are interested in what really happened, and not necessarily Christian theology.  Most scholars agree:  Matthew's damnation of the Jews carried over the centuries, and it was Pope John Paul II who said don't believe that part of the Passion story, that it was not true.

Most of the Founding Fathers were Free Masons.  They believed in God but not organized religion.  They had come from England and Europe where centuries of religious wars between Catholics and Protestants, Kings and Popes had devastated their lives, destroyed their property and killed their families.  They were determined this would not happen in America.  I read they held Jesus in very high regard, as one of the greatest prophets but they wanted no part of Christianity.
   

[Brianroy]

In the normal course of research of biblical texts, most scholars miss the obvious.  By example, Isaiah 7:14 is one of some 134 texts that have been tampered with by the Massoretes, who changed the name YHVH into ADNY.   

In Esther 2:17 and Joel 1:8, it cannot be categorically stated that Bethulah means a virgin, and appears to show cause to believe "almah" is the better translation regarding Biblical use in the OT texts.


C. H. Gordon in Journal of Bible and Religion’s 21:240-241 argued that the origins of Bethulah in the near eastern languages does not meet the  virgo intacta demands the anti-Almah contenders say that Bethulah would have carried.

In the Akkadian, the related Bethulah cognate will only translate to virginity when applied to the very youthful; while in the Ugaritic, the possible  root  "btlt" is a oft a reference to the wife of Baal, who indeed has an active sex life in the mythology regarding Baal and Anat.


So besides the Bethulah controversy, what of the other stuff that scholars are missing?

For example,
Israel Knohl writes:

“…the Gabriel Revelation …
 In Line 57, we find the phrase "dam tvuhey yerushalayim" ("the blood of the slain of Jerusalem"). Line 67 reads: "Baser lo al dam zu hamerkava shelahen" ("Tell him about the blood. This is their merkava [heavenly chariot]"). The message being conveyed is that the blood of those who were killed will become their "chariot" to heaven.

Hovering in the background, of course, is the story of Elijah's ascent to heaven: "Behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire... and Elijah went up in a whirlwind into heaven" (II Kings 2:11).”

My response:
            I ask, whose are the heavenly chariots? And is there more to it than just that?  Would there be a whole missed theology about it, or what?


 In Habakkuk 3:8, we read:
  Did rivers burn against the L-RD? was thine anger against the rivers? was thy wrath against the sea?  For you ride upon thine horses, thy chariots of Yeshua.

2 Kings 6:17 reads:
And Elisha prayed, and said, L-RD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the L-RD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.


Psalm 68:17
The chariots of Elohim are 20,000, even thousands of angels: 
Adonai /Adonee  {cf.  Psalm 110:1}
 is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

The same L-RD or Master who appeared as the G-D of Israel,  and is as a second YHVeH from YHVeH , is He to whom the chariots of Elohim belongs.  The chariots are not just a means of salvation deliverance to the saints of the L-RD, the chariots of  Elohim are headed by He who was at Sinai. 

Who was that One?   

"Why do You withdraw Thy RIGHT HAND?
Pluck HIM out of Thy Bosom.                            [cf. John 1:18]
For G-D is my King of old,
working Yeshua  [i.e.,  ‘Jesus’]
 in the midst of the Earth." - Psalm 74:11-12

And why was G-D wroth in the wilderness with Israel?
"Because they believed not in G-D,
and trusted not in His Yeshua  [i.e.,  ‘Jesus’]." - Psalm 78:22

Yeshua identified in the Torah and Old Testament:

In Genesis 49:18, the name Yeshua (Yod-Shin-Vav-Ayin) appears in the Hebrew as the identity  of King Messiah in this and all following verses I will cite.   From the Torah’s own prophecy, from Jacob (speaking as one of the prophets)  is Yeshua NAMED by the patriarch as the Savior of his progeny.

Yeshua is identified as a name of  the Deliverer of the Patriarch Jacob:

Genesis 49:18        I have waited for thy Yeshua, O L-RD.


The G-D whom Moses knew:

Exodus 14:13
And Moses said unto the people,
 Fear ye not, stand still, and see the Yeshua(t)
of the L-RD,
 which he will shew to you to day:
for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever.

alternately – stand still and see  ‘the coming Savior / Salvation/ Jesus of the L-RD , he who is  held/extended out; which he shall show you….”


Exodus 15:2
 The L-RD is my strength and song, and he is become my Yeshua :
 He is my G-D, and I will prepare him an habitation;
my father's God,               [cf. Genesis 49:18]
and I will exalt him.

In context of these two chapters, this same G-D, Yeshua, is He  who "roars from Heaven" to save Israel at the Reed / Red Sea as the Right Hand of  the Power  (the Arm of the L-RD).



1Samuel 2:1 And Hannah prayed, and said, My heart rejoiceth in the L-RD, mine horn is exalted in the L-RD: my mouth is enlarged over mine enemies; because I rejoice in thy Yeshua.

1 Samuel 2:10 identifies Yeshua of verse 1 as the Messiah, even as prophesied by Jacob in Genesis 49:18.   

"I have waited for thy SALVATION, O L-RD"  in Genesis 49:18,
is also translated as 
"I have waited for thy Yeshua, O L-RD", and "I have waited for thy Jesus, O L-RD".

This activity of English translation has hidden the full effect of this reality of Biblical studies.  The Hebrew utility of equating "salvation" to a person with the name and definition of  Jesus/Yeshua is not a rare biblical event.  For example,



"I rejoice in thy Jesus" - I Samuel 2:1

"Touch not my Messiah, and do my prophets no harm.
Sing unto the L-RD, all the Earth;
show forth day to day His Jesus."  - I Chronicles 16:22-23, Psalm 96:2

"I will rejoice in thy Jesus." - Psalm 9:14

"My heart shall rejoice in thy Jesus." - Psalm 13:5

"We will rejoice in thy Jesus, in the NAME of our G-D;..." - Psalm 20:5

"Who gives the Jesus of Israel out of Zion?" Psalm 53:6

  [In other words, who casts Him out?  But once He comes back, then...]

"Let thy Jesus, O G-D, set me on high." - Psalm 69:29

"Behold, HASHEM has made it heard to the end of the EARTH:
Say to the daughter of Zion,
Behold, Your Jesus comes!"
[Behold! Your Yeshua comes!]  -  Isaiah 62:11
"O Sing unto the L-RD a new song; for He hath done marvellous things:
His RIGHT HAND, and His HOLY ARM, hath gotten Him the victory,
The L-RD hath made known his JESUS:
His RIGHTEOUSNESS has He openly shown in the sight of the heathen.
...all the ends of the Earth have seen the JESUS of our G-D." - Psalm 98:1-3

"Remember me, HASHEM, with the favor of Your people:
O visit me with Your JESUS." - Psalm 106:4

"What shall I return to HASHEM for His benefits to me?
I shall lift up the Cup of JESUS,
and I shall call upon the NAME of HASHEM." - Psalm 116:12-13

"Pushing, you pushed me to fall; but HASHEM helped me.
HASHEM is my Strength and my song;
and He is to me JESUS!
The voice of the joyful shouting
and JESUS is in the Tabernacle of the righteous.  [singing]
'The RIGHT HAND of HASHEM works mightily.
The RIGHT HAND of HASHEM is exalted.
The RIGHT HAND of HASHEM acts mightily.
...I will thank You, for You answered me, and are my JESUS." - Psalm 118:13-16,21

"O HASHEM, I have hoped for Your JESUS, and have done Your precepts...
I have longed for Your JESUS, O HASHEM;
and Your Law is my delight."  - Psalm 119:166,174

"Let Israel rejoice in his MAKER,
let the sons of Zion be joyful in their KING.
...For HASHEM takes pleasure in His people,
He adorns the humble with JESUS."[alt. "He beautifies the meek with JESUS."]  - Psalm 149:2,4


"Behold! G-D is my JESUS!
I will trust and not be afraid, for my strength and my song is YH YHVeH,
and He became to me, JESUS.
And you shall draw water with joy
out of the wells of JESUS."  - Isaiah 12:2-3

"AND IN THAT DAY, one shall say,
'Behold! This is our G-D!  We have waited for Him, and He will save us!
This is HASHEM, we have waited for Him:
we will be glad and rejoice in His JESUS'."  - Isaiah 25:9


"AND IN THAT DAY, this song shall be sung in the Land of Judah:
'A Strong city is ours!
He sets JESUS as our walls and rampart.
Open the gates, that a righteous nation keeping truth may come in."  - Isaiah 26:1-2

[In other words, if the context of Yeshua is taken after its Biblical allowances for a duality of salvation deliverance and that of  a Name of G-D, then  Yeshua / Jesus is easily discovered throughout the Old Testament Scriptures asthe one Israel Knohl and other scholars SHOULD HAVE been looking for.]

________________________________________ ____________


Yesha" and "Yasha" appear some 233 times in addition to "yeshua" as "salvation deliverance" in the OT.

In the Dead Sea Scrolls, there is a call for the righteous to:
"...(leave) from the dwelling-place of the men of perversion,
in order that*you*may* go to the Wilderness to prepare the Way for Him, as it is written,
      'In the Wilderness, prepare the Way of HASHEM,
       make straight in the Desert a MESILAH for our G-D.'
THIS IS THE SEARCH OF THE LAW."    (Manual of Discipline 8:13-15)


“You, HASHEM, are our Father (and)
‘OUR REDEEMER FROM EVERLASTING’ is Your NAME.”  (Isaiah 63:16b)

“Our Redeemer” in the Hebrew is Ga’alenu.  Ga’alenu in the context of Isaiah 63:16 is He who purchases us and buys us back from sin from a time when sin was not.  In other words, G-D who exists before sin, restores or is purchasing us back to be restored to an original position of what He originally intended us to be.  It is not only to a time before all sin offerings (be it an “olah’/burnt offering, or a “hattat”/sin offering, or an “asham”/trespass offering), it is before the very foundation of the world, and before any Creation was ever created.

Notice, that Ga’alenu  is NOT a traditional name…and yet, in the Biblical context, like Yeshua, this word is certainly a NAME taken up by YHVeH / Jehovah upon Himself.  To therefore dismiss all “Yeshua” texts of the Old Testament out of hand is the action of both ignorance and stubbornness to NOT research this issue out from the texts themselves. 

Isaiah 63 begins with the consequence and bloodiness of sin.  In the Old Testament Covenant system, G-D makes Himself the Savior of those who trust rightly in Him (Isaiah 63:.  And who are they that put their trust in G-D rightly?  In the entirety of the verse, we see…

“For You (are) our Father, though Abraham knows us not,
and Israel acknowledges us not.     
You, HASHEM, are our Father (and)
‘our Redeemer from everlasting’ is Your NAME.”  (Isaiah 63:16)

In many ways, it seems to be us...which is one of the reasons Christians (especially us of the Gentiles) love the book of Isaiah so much.

This "REDEEMER from everlasting"  is the same as Micah 5:2,
“Whose goings forth are of old, even from everlasting.”

This is Yeshua.  This is the One called SALVATION.

Micah and Isaiah both shared circa 45-year contemporaneous ministry.  The two actually compliment each other’s ministry.  As the Scroll of Micah says,

“Who is a G-D like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the Remnant of His Heritage?  He retaineth not His anger forever, because He delighteth in mercy.
   He will turn again, and have compassion upon us; HE WILL SUBDUE OUR INIQUITIES; and Thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.” (Micah 7:18-19).   

"There is none holy as the LORD:
for there is none beside thee..." (e.g., I Samuel 2:2)

And yet, we have the exaltation of a particular name when the Hebrew Bible leads and ends a sentence with its holiest word.  In the Bible, there are only two Hebrew verses that begin with and end with the Tetragrammaton NAME of the L-RD.   

       When I say this, I say this with the knowledge of needing to not lightly dismiss the third cited alleged example by scribes writing massorah in this Scriptural insight of the verses having begun and ended with the Divine Name.   That third example, to them,  is 1 Samuel 26:23.  I do not add that verse to this collection, because it leads off with a vav prefix to the Tetragrammaton. 

      By the standards of Gematria, the leading Yod in each of these two verses below, is the "hand" of the L-RD, who is the L-RD.   The ending letter He, in Gematria, represents the "mnemonic sign, Jah is His Name" (C. David Ginsberg, Massorah, Vol. 4, 1880, 1905 reprint.  p.472)  By 1 Samuel's failure to have the Yod of the Divine Name first,  it is therefore to be recategorized.  So what is this glorious and holy name? 

1)  “YHVeH  your G-D  (is)  the One  (who) is crossing over before you.
He shall destroy nations, those from before,  and you will dispossess them.

Yahoshua {Joshua / Jesus }  is the One   (who)  is crossing over before you,   as has spoken YHVeH.”    Deuteronomy 31:3 (literal)


2) “ YHVeH  (is) to my (future) salvation deliverance,
therefore my songs we will play all the days of our life,
at the House of YHVeH.                                         Isaiah 38:20 (literal)   


In these,  the L-RD Himself confirms the name of Joshua (LXX – Jesus) upon Himself;  and in making this verse in Isaiah the only other match, it should be taught that the L-RD wishes us to  learn that it is through this name, Jesus (Deut. 31:3) by which salvation deliverances – in this world and in the next – come about by.

Hence, in the Hebrew, Deuteronomy 31:3 and Isaiah 38:20, are for us -- Yeshua verses, and another confirmation in a long line of thousands of Biblical confirmations pointing to a coherent authenticity on its own level and greater than any collection of biblical archaeology alone.


In Psalm 110:1, we find that there is the exaltation of the Master, be He called Adonai or  Adonee – He  in I Samuel 2:10 is identified as King Messiah. 

In Psalm 110:5, in the massorah or commentary of the masoretes we find that this verse contains 1 of over 100 alterations of the Tetragrammaton Name of YHVH to ADNY (Jehovah being changed to Adonai). 

Adonai at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

actually read in the pre-Masoretic era as:

YHVEH at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.

And this concept allows not only for a Father and Son "One G-D" Deity, but may also be read after the concept of a Third YHVeH (such as the "Holy Spirit") at the Right Hand of the Right Hand (as it were). 

In Genesis 18:3 and in the Sodomic Epic of 19:18, we have two more of the Tetragrammaton to "adny" occurences, in which the expression comes off as "My YHVeH". 

In Exodus 15:3, we find that He who is YHVeH at the Right Hand of YHVeH in Psalm 110:1,5, is also the maker of the heavens and the earth (cf. Psalm 118:14-16 with Ex. 15:6, Isaiah 42:8, and Amos 5:8, 9:6).

So if the massoretes are obligated to change whole letters of Yod to Alef, He to Dalet, Vav to Nun, He to Yod,  as many as 134 times...we might ask...why?  The Massorah says that they said it was to avoid "confusion".  Yet the greatest known collector of the Massorah, having researched out the material in the texts themselves, became a definite believer in Yeshua as YHVeH at the Right Hand of YHVeH,  even though he rigidly held a researcher's  mindset of a Jewish scribe over that of a First Century type of convert, and prefixed his name as Christian David Ginsberg, ever after. 

So I would say that since the Dead Sea Scroll clearly has the vav to spell KARU  (and not KARiY), that since no letters are missing, but an alteration DID take place, that it was either a change made by the Masoretes or another post-First century A.D. scribe with an anti-Yeshua agenda. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Other:  NT Inflection Trivia



In regard to Adam as a name, the Apostle Paul seems to theologically read it, in regard to his piece on the First and Second Adam concept, (Christ being the Second Adam, born of a virgin),  in the Gematriac sense of Alef  followed by D-M, because Adam can also imply the ruddiness / redness that comes from the showing of blood.    The Alef being the abbreviative for Elohim, and D-M meaning "blood".  Hence, "G-D's Blood" ...or perhaps an insight such as G-D's soul ('for the soul / life {nefesh} of the flesh is in the blood' - Leviticus 17:11).

Jude, in verse 12, himself seems to be doing a play on those Adam who are wicked as being those "clouds without water",  after that of ADaM being AD   M,   as Alef and Dalet together, followed by the Mem.

In regard to Adam being as a simple "word" for "man", Jude use would give it the sense of being after the word  (AD) followed by the spoken letter (Mem), or:  an enveloping Mist or Fog     of Waters (that do not give rain).    Hence, Jude's "clouds without water". 

In the modern age, we have lost many of the nuances and the art of "knowing" Scripture, and techniques of either learning or proving a view of Scriptural philosophy v. core beliefs.

Archaeology often guesses upon the past based on how much or little they understand texts, or at least  as  little or as much as when they use the trowel.  Yet, even with what we do have, we are still encouraged to be ever growing and learning in both the knowledge and in the understanding.

Peace.

[kattey]

Hi Brianroy

Are you a theologian?  A grad student?  A researcher?  Your knowledge is extensive!

My King James Bible does not use the name Jesus in Psalms.  It uses LORD in each of these verses.  What Bible are you using?

I read Biblical criticism which is about history.  In scholar Elaine Pagel's book, _The Gnostic Gospels_, she describes how the divinity of Jesus was decided. The Council of Nicea was held in 325 CE in Turkey with Bishops from all over the Christian world attending.  Emperor Constantine also attended.

Of the congregates, about half believed in Jesus' divinity and half did not.  Emperor Constantine became impatient after days of discussion with no decision being reached.  He finally declared that yes, Jesus was divine.

Though Christianity was growing, most people still believed in Roman and Greek gods.  Constantine himself was the son of a god, as all the emperors had been.  I believe he probably based his decision to elevate Jesus on this.

It doesn't matter.  We all have a personal choice in our religious beliefs and all should be respected.

[Brianroy]

Kattey,
   I believe I have adequately (albeit tersely) addressed the transliteration and translation issue.  Yeshua in the Hebrew text, becomes the Greek Jesus (a transliteration of a Greek name)and the English (a direct translation as) SALVATION. 

In effect, we transliterate Jesus in the New Testament from the Greek, but do not do this in the Old Testament with Yeshua from the Hebrew.  This may do more with whether we literally believe or disbelieve the Bible, and especially its very texts.   Knowledge of: the texts,  the chain of custody,  and changes to some texts and / or words...these  need not force one into a state of apostasy.  The late Gleason Archer, Jr., former Harvard Professor, Hebrew OT Wordbook co-editor and contributor,  and one of many co-translators on the NIV Bible panel, etc., is but one of many examples.   

 In the Old Testament, we translate Yeshua as "salvation" (when it actually could be "optional" instead of "required" to translate the word / name) along with the words Yesha and Yasha.

We agree to disagree about history.  I have already addressed the veracity of Christian doctrine and eyewitness testimony elsewhere at the BAS Forum, showing that the NT historic veracity extends back to the days of the NT formation of 47-57/58 A.D., and even to Jesus Himself. 

We agree that you choose to not agree with this.

Thanks.   Peace.

[Brianroy]

Re:
 Earlier,  I forgot to source the Assyrian Dictionary Volume 2, University of Chicago, 1965,  pp. 173-174 regarding "batultu"

http://oi.uchicago.edu/pdf/cad_b.pdf

{takes forever to load up this pdf.; 
 pp. 191-192 on the pdf.}

and the information regarding the issue of Bethulah can also be found in the Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament (edited by R.L Harris, G.A. Archer Jr., and B.K. Waltke) from Moody Press , 1980 (word study #295 in Volume 1). 

Peace.

[turanclancath]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic_text

I found this about the Masoretic text.

Didnt know there were changes made by the Masoretes in the text as Brianroy mentions, Very interesting.

As i,m not a theologian I think i can ask a perhaps not so clever question  as i understood the postings well.

Is the Septuagint then not more trusthworthy then the masoretic text ?


here a handy link to compare them both

http://ecmarsh.com/lxx-kjv/isaiah/isa_007.htm



and about bethula I found this

http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/documents/In%20Defense%20of%20the%20Old%20Testament%20Prophecy%20of%20the%20Vrigin%20Birth%20of%20the%20Messiah.htm

Turanclancath:)

[kattey]

To Theologian Brianroy

In the ancient Torah writings, Yahweh is represented by YHWH.  This holy name could not be pronounced by religious Jews.  It holds true today.  They added vowels above the initials that represented a form of Adonae which translates as LORD.

Muslims claim those same verses in the Torah foretell of Mohammed.