deborah and the iron war chariots

[turanclancath]

I puzzle already a long time about Judges .4/13   about Deborah,Sisera etc.
in Judges 4./13 Sisera has 900 iron war chariots!!!!

so my puzzleling.
I,time determination Cant be before 1200 .
The Hittite king  in the 13 century complained that he cant sent any more iron to his alley in ugarit.
it was around 1230.
yeas Iron was known for jewelry already in the 14 century  Egyptyan phataos had iron rings .
II As armour it became around 1200 in use ,by the way the  tale that iron was a hittite secret is a fable !!!!For hittites see the many modern books and articles of Trevor Bryce !!
And for a hypo thesis about iron  weapons as an agent of the bronze age collapse  the book and articles of Robert Drews.

III.Egyptian and Hittite war chariots were build for speed charging the enemy ( like a mediaeval cavalry charge ) sweeping everything away.
Egyptians had 2 occupants in there chariots.
But the Hittites made it already more heavy with 1 driver and 2 fighters but
still swift.
The Asyrrians in the 8 century had 4 occupantas  so it was a fighting   platform.With Archers and shields

The Persians added metal Scytes at the weels slashing the enemys.

IV.
Interesting in Homer( trojan war circa 1200  so contemporous with Deborah)thewar chariot is only a means of transport the Greek/Trojan heroes descend and fight by foot and everything is still BRONZE !!!!

V.So I wonder did we find remnants of the 900 iron war chariots as they were  drowed  in the Kishon  .?
and what of the iron were it skytes or plates at the chariot.?
And for chronology the implication is after 1200 !


have a nice weekend.

turanclancath:)

[Sekhmet]

My dear Sire that was an interesting post.  Thank you!

However, should we accept that redactors were at work sometime after the Babylonian Exile when iron was a more common metal in the use of chariots.  We can accept that Deborah's capture of 900 iron chariots is mildly redacted.  Especially since as Robert Drewss writes in his book The End of the Bronze Age: Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe ca. 1200 BCE (1993). Princeton, page 102 " ...Assyrian chariots with iron undercarriages..."
We can also find in the above book on page 130, supporting text of the claim in scripture.  That Deborah had a very poor capture of silver during this battle of hers.


The number of chariots is very large!  900!  The only battle at Megiddo, ever known to produce such a large number of captured chariots, is the one that dates to Pharaoh Thutmose III battle in ca. 1458 BCE. 

This great Pharaoh claims to have captured 894 chariots two of which were gold. The Oxford History Ancient Egypt .  (2000)  (edited by Ian Shaw) written by Betsy M. Bryan.  pg. 245.

Nice work Turanclancath Have a nice day!

[turanclancath]

Exellent observation  Lady Sekhmet  about iron war chariots.

I agree with you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Qarqar.

The above link is about king Achab  husband of  almighty queen Jezabel
we are in the year 853 with the battle of Quarquar.
In reality the allies defeated the mighty Assyrians.

In the Assyrian records ( like in Egyptian records ) the enemy was always the looser.

Sure the numbers were exagerated ( as in Egyptian records ) but anyway it was a mighty  war chariots battle,
This is the time of the iron war chariots !

The house of Omri and the northern kingdom were famous for there war chariots.

When the northern kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrians and people were deported the charioteers  were incorporated in a charioteers regiment of the Assyrians so famous were these northern charioteers.

As you observed with 3  or  4 people in the war chariot the old light structures ( Egyptian war chariots   etc ) could not hold 3 or 4 people so the bottom and sides were reinforced with iron.

Istead of a swift light instrument the  war chariots became a all devastating heavy instrument.
Compare a light charge by cavalry  with a charge by war elephants  .
You have the same difference.
So the oral transmission of the Deborah text put the iron chariots in at a later time then actual Deborah.Indication of the time it was written down.

turanclancath

PS
( iron chariots as we observed were impossible at Deborahs time  around  1200/1000 )

[Sekhmet]

My dear Sire TuranClanCath, thank you for waiting on this post a real gentleman you are sir:)
 
Assyrian Army and Chariots (from the below website)

Tactical Flexibility.

Quote “…The growth in tactical flexibility of small units was also evident in the ability of armies to develop an all-weather capability for ground combat. The Assyrians regularly fought in the summer and winter months, and even carried out siege operations in the winter. Sargon II's campaign against the Urartu (Armenia) in 714 B.C. provided a textbook example of the development of improved tactical proficiency. The campaign was conducted almost 600 miles from the Assyrian capital in the late fall. Sargon's army, complete with contingents of infantry, cavalry, and heavy chariots, traversed mountains, streams, and rivers on the route of march. …” 

Please note heavy Assyrian chariots are mentioned third in the list.  The infantry remained the primary force in the Iron Age.  It was the cavalry, which began the true mobility of the ancient Iron Age armies.

Quote  “…The evolution of tactics proceeded in stages, each stage building upon solutions to problems confronted by the limitations of the previous stage. The results were evident as early as the 14th century B.C. when the Egyptian army first began to learn how to control large units of different combat capabilities, providing evidence of the emergence of a genuine combined arms capability….
…The earliest armies were essentially infantry forces with little in the way of other tactical capability. While the early Egyptian army organized its infantry forces by the types of weapons they carried, this practice did little to increase tactical proficiency. The result was packed infantry formations that could hardly move once arrayed for battle. When rival infantry formations clashed and one side broke, the victor had no opportunity to pursue the defeated and increase the casualty rate. This situation changed with the Egyptian adoption of the chariot.” 

Even more so after Tuthmose the Thirds capture of 892 chariots at the Battle of Megiddo.

Quote “…The chariot introduced a radically new tactical capability to the battlefield: mobility. The chariot added a new dimension to the traditional use of shock tactics and, when equipped with archers armed with the composite bow, provided the world's first mobile firing platform. It was the only weapon that could participate in all phases of the battle with equal effectiveness. Its archer crews could engage the enemy at long range. Upon closing, the crews switched to the javelin and axe and attacked as mobile infantry. Once the enemy infantry was scattered, the chariot could be used to mount a truly lethal pursuit. Moreover, the chariot could be used to inflict surprise, a tactic which had never been possible before with packed infantry units. The chariot also allowed another major innovation, the use of mobile reserves that could be committed at a propitious moment to turn a flank or exploit a breakthrough. It became the elite striking arm of the Egyptian armies and greatly expanded the tactical capabilities of Egyptian combat units.
The tactical proficiency of the Assyrian army relied upon providing a mix of units acting in concert. The infantry remained the major shock force of the army. The normal infantry unit was a highly trained maneuver company that could be easily tailored into units of 50-200 men, depending upon the tactical requirements of the moment. The firepower of Assyrian archer companies was increased by as much as 40 percent by introducing an innovation in the shoulder quiver that allowed the arrows to be brought within rapid reach of the bowman. The Assyrian chariot was a large and heavy vehicle that was pulled by three horses and carried a crew of four. Its tactical role was quite different; it maximized the role of shock. The idea was to attack enemy formations from as many directions as possible. Once engaged the crews dismounted and fought as infantry. The Assyrians were the first to introduce the use of mounted infantry, and their use of the chariot strongly parallels the use of armored personnel carriers in modern armies.
The large scope of military action forced the Assyrians to fight in all types of terrain, a condition to which the heavy chariot was often ill-suited. A major Assyrian revolution in battlefield capability was the invention of cavalry. Assyrian cavalrymen used the saddle girth, crupper, and breast strap to stabilize the rider, and the horse was controlled by the leg and heel pressure of the boot. (The spur and stirrup had not yet been invented.) These innovations made possible the first use of mounted archers, the famed "hurricanes on horseback" of the Old Testament. In set-piece battle the cavalry was used to pin the enemy flanks and to take up blocking positions to prevent a retreat. Once in position behind the enemy, the cavalry acted as an anvil against which the chariot and infantry units could drive the enemy. The ability of the horse to traverse uneven terrain made the cavalry especially lethal in pursuit. This same ability made cavalry forces highly flexible and valuable for reconnaissance in force and for providing flank security for the army on the march, two new tactical capabilities….”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It is in the 9th century (c 890 BCE) that Assyria begins to use cavalry during the reign of King Tukulti-Ninurta II.  By the time of Ashurbanipal of the 7th century, the Assyrian cavalry was well armored man and horse.  Source:  Healy, Mark.  (2000). The Ancient Assyrians.  Osprey. Page 20.

I do agree with Dr. Robert Drews, assessment that by the historical time of Deborah (c. 1200-1000 BCE) 900 chariots carrying 2-3 people would have caused havoc on a battlefield.  While less than a hundred would not, hence my determination upon logic that Deborah fought as an ally to Egypt’s Tuthmose III at his battle Megiddo.  Drews, Robert (1995 first paperback publishing) The End of Bronze Age Changes in Warfare and the Catastrophe CA.1200 B.C. Princeton.  The complete work considered.

If we place Deborah and Tuthmose III together, we solve more problems the 18th dynasty of Egypt places before the Egyptianphil.  Why did Tuthmose III destroy the Pharaonic works of Pharaoh Hatshepsut?  Why did he leave her queenly ones alone?  Why did he wait so long to destroy the Pharaonic claims of Hatshepsut?

The answer could be as simple as the Song of Deborah.  The Battle of Megiddo .won by Tuthmose III was a really, big deal; for this sole King at last of Egypt, in his first year of sole reign.  To have a woman given credit for the success of this battle would have outraged him.  Causing him to destroy what he could of the powerful women that ruled his life for so long.  A song cannot be destroyed whereas, Pharaonic works could. 

That is if we could ever find that strata of hers’.  Source:  Cline, Eric H. (2000) The Battles of Armageddon Megiddo and the Jezreel Valley from the Bronze Age to the Nuclear Age Michigan. Page 58.
 

[turanclancath]

Dear Lady Sekhmet.


Great and very learned posting of you ,wonderfull !!!!


Thank you  for the post on  Sisera,s  900   iron war chariots.
And thank for the link about military history
I,m sure you know this article about the battle of Megiddo.



Ancient Egypt: The Battle of Megiddo


and page 245 of the Oxford history of Egypt

403 Forbidden
Concerning War Chariots.
I.
Exellent your remark that the Assyrians used 3 to 4 persons in a war chariot.
It was really a fast fast moving heavy tank destroying everything by shock.

II
And indeed   as you write :
Assyrian infantry was the main  source of their army.!
With their heavy long shields and their long spears the Assyrian  infantery men were nearly invinceble.

III.Cavalry was till the common use of the stirrup( 8 century Ad ,Carolingian times )
not used for mounted shock combat.
The Parthians were master in the strike and run tactic with mounted archers on horseback.
At the battle of Carrhae ( 53 BC ) they destroyed in that way the army of triumvir Crassus.


IV The Egyptians learned the use of war chariots with many  other things from the Hyksos.?
It arrived after 1700 in Egypt.





Horses in Ancient Egypt

 Exodus Pharao could use  600 of his best  war chariots   and  all the other warchariots of Egypt to pursuit the Israelites .
Exodus .14. 7-8.

The Egyptians used light and swift war chariots  with a driver and a soldier( see the chariots found in king Tuts tomb )

See the same Egyptian link


The army in ancient Egypt



and

The chariot in Ancient Egypt


and
The Chariot in Egyptian Warfare

The Hittites used already a more all purpose vehicle much heavyer with2( and later  3 persons.around the battle of Kadesh )

See the exellent book by Trevor Bryce
: Trevor Bryce : Life and society in the Hittite world.
Oxford Paperback 2004.
page 111-113 about Hittite war chariots.


and

ancient worldz: Chariots of war



and this is absolutely great about Hittite chariot warfare
Information about the Hittites - Esssays

V.Iron was introduced after 1300 ( see your military history link the chapter[ on the military revolution )


Iron Age Revolution


But bronze was long long afterwards used  .


some war chariot images

Art and Architecture during the Age of Empires





And last but not least good old Wikipedia:)
about the chariot ( very instructive)

Chariot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Again compliments for the posting .

Turanclancath

[Sekhmet]

Aw, my most sincere thanks for the enjoyable testing of the mind Sir
   Many thanks for the offering of good information sites.

On horses, wheels, and movable platforms from before, during and after the third millennium; again archaeology is a young science as are most since the collapse of the Classical World and the advent of the Dark Ages.  New material is continuing to be uncovered; by the best minds, this young science has ever produced in history!  To cling to ancient considerations without attention to modern input in my humble opinion sir, would be to continue with the Classical thought of the four humors dictating our health and well- being.  Really now do you not prefer modern medicine?

From the Horse’s Mouth

Levine - Domestication, Breed Diversification and Early History of the
Horse

Dr. Aardsma, is another that places the Patriarchs into the early third millennium.  He answers many of these questions at this below website.  I do not agree fully with his chronology.  It has enough truth to it that I can suggest to others.  That they might refer to aspects of it for increased information regarding the 3rd millennium placement of the Patriarchs.  BC Correspondence: Horses and Chariots in Egypt


http://bruceowen.com/emciv/341-06f-12-EarlyDynastic.pdf  See pages 8 and 9 specifically for chariots, sledges, and animals to pull them.  These tombs from Ur, Sumerian-Mesopotamia date to ED III ( 2500 to 2400 BCE ).  With plenty of time for Egypt’s 6th dynasty ( 2345-2181 BCE ) to have copied and incorporate the chariot, wagons, sledges into its own armies, and private life.

Why would Egyptians not mention chariots, horses in the Old Kingdom?  Well Dr. Aardsma offers some outstanding reasons in the above website of his.  Some others are Egyptians preferred.  Egyptian accepting of new things was all right, but they did not brag about it until proven effective for Egyptian way of life as in the New Kingdom when we first see multiples of horses and chariots.  Then another is that tradition in Egyptian burial practices of the Old Kingdom date back into the earliest periods of State formation.  One hoped that the old kingdom Pharaoh you served in life would guarantee you the dead an afterlife.  If one in life really could not have ones’ head higher than Pharaoh, and Pharaoh did not often ride his chariot, your tomb would not have you riding yours either because it might insult Pharaoh and your afterlife would be gone.  No, wonder the cult of Osiris, gained strength after the downfall of the Old Kingdom.

If the above evidence is not enough my dear Sire TuranClanCath, we can always blame the redactors!  A good All Saints Day to you and yours!

Date Sources:
Sumerian-Mesopotamia:  The noted web page.

Egypt’s 6th dynasty:  Hawass, Zahi. (2001).   Silent Images Women in Pharaonic Egypt.  Harry N. Abrams. Page 202.

[turanclancath]

Dear Lady Sekmeth.
My compliments and thanks

Thanks for the wealth of information you give.
That is  how  a Forum   functons  to exchange information  idyes  and learn more  and discuss it.
Even when you dont agree with all.

Compliments for the academic and courtois way we discuss .
Its really a role model i think.how discussion in a friendly way should be held

Like the often mentioned discussion  by me  between Shanks and Jacobovici about Exodus.

So it feels really good to discuss with you and critisize(sometimes ) and have different opinions in a friendly way.

Hope if i have some critic i stay  Dear Sir Turanclancath.

And have a wonderfull weekend with your family.
Today all Saints Day  our daughter in law has here birthday .

PS


And concidering the modern horse medicine 
is already older medicine     lol lol , the late Marija Gimbutas
postulated in here Kurgan hypothesis(see wiki for Kurgan and Marija Gimbutas and here interesting books like   the living goddesses ,and the goddessses and gods of old europe  ) always that Indo European waves  from circa 4000 bc on in 3 waves used the horse as chariot and riding animal.

Turanclancath:)

[Sekhmet]

Dear Lady Sekmeth.
My compliments and thanks

Thanks for the wealth of information you give.
That is  how  a Forum   functons  to exchange information  idyes  and learn more  and discuss it.
Even when you dont agree with all.

Compliments for the academic and courtois way we discuss .
Its really a role model i think.how discussion in a friendly way should be held

Like the often mentioned discussion  by me  between Shanks and Jacobovici about Exodus.

So it feels really good to discuss with you and critisize(sometimes ) and have different opinions in a friendly way.

Hope if i have some critic i stay  Dear Sir Turanclancath.

And have a wonderfull weekend with your family.
Today all Saints Day  our daughter in law has here birthday .

PS


And concidering the modern horse medicine 
is already older medicine     lol lol , the late Marija Gimbutas
postulated in here Kurgan hypothesis(see wiki for Kurgan and Marija Gimbutas and here interesting books like   the living goddesses ,and the goddessses and gods of old europe  ) always that Indo European waves  from circa 4000 bc on in 3 waves used the horse as chariot and riding animal.

Turanclancath:)

My Dear Sir Turanclancath 

I cannot conceive of you causing the dreaded lioness to come out in me.  You are far to much a gentleman at least in our postings to date.  Looking over our postings, I cannot find much in what we do agree with regarding Biblical Chronology.  I, expect attacks on the chronological work, I welcome them in truth.  I do fear sir you will remain my dear, or grow into my most dear Sir Turanclancath 

Now back to the thread sir.  Judges 5:19 last line “They (the Israelites) took no plunder in silver.”  This is echoed in Tuthmose III’s mention of just, “ 7 mry-wood poles wrought in silver, of the tent of that vile doomed one” being taken as plunder (Redford 2003: 35).


Source:
Redford, Donald B. (2003).  The Wars in Syria and Palestine of Thutmose III.  Brill.

To all a great day 

[turanclancath]

Dear Lady Sekhmet( Bastet :I prefer the Bastet after all it are 2 aspects
of the same  lol lol )

I,m in a poetic good mood today.

So to iron out ( to stay in the topic ) a misunderstanding:

I agree with you that  The Biblical Chronology is very ?

 I.  The years jugling for Temple Construction,Exodus ,Abram etc etc is very
diffuse every one seems to have another calculation system.
Happily i dont understand calculation very well so i dont use that method much.

II.Your remarks about the uncertanyty of the Judges period ( see your postings here ) are very correct and exellent.

We dont know exactly how many generations
It can in my opinion even be possible that  some judges lived parallel
2  or 3 tribes had a judge in the same time more or less .And not a neat
succession  judge after judge .
Sometimesit is written  who succeeded who  but sometimes not.

So the Pillars or Fundament of your theory is very acceptable to me.

But about the conclusions and interpretations we have indeed different points of vieuw.
But so what !
would be a bleak world if there was only 1 opinion, party, kind of people etc etc

III,For people in Holland its very normal to live and talk and govern  together in harmony
respecting each others religion, political  and scientific beliefs and opinions.

As i wrote before there a a real bouquet of chronology flowers,Sekhmet ,
Rohl, Aartsma,Velikovsky , the traditional  and many many others.

And everybody thinks his theory to be the correct one
Like in religions every religion thinks it is the true one ( see the Middle Ages religion disputations  and 16 century Luther at the Reichstag in Worms contra the Catholic Church ) etc etc.
Time for me to develop a Iron hard chronology
This is no irony i like word plays.

To return to the topic.
The topic was about the 900 iron chariots in Deborah.
That means it must be in my opinion  (concerning  iron technology) be  not before the 13 century.


kind greetings  and to all good fortune on this important day for USA .

Turanclancath

[turanclancath]

Deborah, Judge of Israel, Bible bios, Bible Stories



Turanclancath 
 
 

[Sekhmet]

Deborah, Judge of Israel, Bible bios, Bible Stories



Turanclancath 
 

 

  i got 5 out of 5 right!

[Sekhmet]

Dear Lady Sekhmet( Bastet :I prefer the Bastet after all it are 2 aspects
of the same  lol lol )

I,m in a poetic good mood today.

So to iron out ( to stay in the topic ) a misunderstanding:

I agree with you that  The Biblical Chronology is very ?

 I.  The years jugling for Temple Construction,Exodus ,Abram etc etc is very
diffuse every one seems to have another calculation system.
Happily i dont understand calculation very well so i dont use that method much.

II.Your remarks about the uncertanyty of the Judges period ( see your postings here ) are very correct and exellent.

We dont know exactly how many generations
It can in my opinion even be possible that  some judges lived parallel
2  or 3 tribes had a judge in the same time more or less .And not a neat
succession  judge after judge .
Sometimesit is written  who succeeded who  but sometimes not.

So the Pillars or Fundament of your theory is very acceptable to me.

But about the conclusions and interpretations we have indeed different points of vieuw.
But so what !
would be a bleak world if there was only 1 opinion, party, kind of people etc etc

III,For people in Holland its very normal to live and talk and govern  together in harmony
respecting each others religion, political  and scientific beliefs and opinions.

As i wrote before there a a real bouquet of chronology flowers,Sekhmet ,
Rohl, Aartsma,Velikovsky , the traditional  and many many others.

And everybody thinks his theory to be the correct one
Like in religions every religion thinks it is the true one ( see the Middle Ages religion disputations  and 16 century Luther at the Reichstag in Worms contra the Catholic Church ) etc etc.
Time for me to develop a Iron hard chronology
This is no irony i like word plays.

To return to the topic.
The topic was about the 900 iron chariots in Deborah.
That means it must be in my opinion  (concerning  iron technology) be  not before the 13 century.


kind greetings  and to all good fortune on this important day for USA .

Turanclancath

My dear sir Turanclancath,  Thank you for your well wishes towards my nations' important day of voting.  I do believe you agree with me; that we must have redactors at work with regards to “Iron” in the 900 chariots of Deborah’s victory at Megiddo.

I do not do iron today it belongs to Yesterday LOL!  You are a great communicator sir, thank you.


As for the compaction of the Judges Era I have considered this and my answer is below.

Period of Judges in Biblical Archeology

“…None of these came from large, national powers of the day. The large powers of the time were not engaged in an active domination of the area.
-   Egypt’s Eighteenth Dynasty rulers, after Amenhotep III, were all weak and not interested in Canaanite control….”
This statement can be easily dismissed by a thorough study of the El Amarna Letters.  The so called weakness of the Pharaohs after Amenhotep III, Akhenaten, Smerekhkare, Tutankhamun, Ay, Horemheb is can also be explained by the formation of the United Kingdom of Israel.

“…The Book of Judges itself suggests the solution; it implies that certain periods overlapped in time.
-          For instance, Judges 3:30-4:1 implies that Shamgar judged during the 80 years of peace following Ehud’s deliverance from the Moabites.
-          Judges 10:7 implies that Jephthah, occupied with the Ammonites east of the Jordan, and Samson, concerned with the Philistines on the west, were contemporary in activity.
-          Certain of the lesser judges, because they were active in separated areas of the land, could have also worked at the same time. For example, Tola, who judged in Issachar (Judg. 10:1-2), and Jair, who judged across the Jordan in Gilead (Judg. 10:3-5)….”

The words suggests, implies are what I considered as more code words for stretching the historical facts to fit the traditional chronology handed down since the first centuries of the Christian Era dating to the Roman-Grecian dominated thought of a short history of mankind.  It also directly contradicts other more strongly phrased words from scripture itself: see below from same website.
The recurring pattern in the book of Judges is often referred to as the “Four S’s.”
1.      Sin: The people fall into sin, as they worship false gods or intermarry with the Canaanites.
2.      Servitude: The people’s sin brings on a period of servitude in which Israel becomes subject to people they once controlled.
3.      Supplication: After a time in servitude, Israel cries out to God in supplication.
4.      Salvation: After supplication God raises up a leader to bring the people salvation.

A key verse, written twice (Judg. 17:6; 21:25), states its tragic theme: “Everyone did as he saw fit.” This pattern of failure runs throughout the book.

Judges 2:16 says that God “raised up judges who saved them.” Twelve names are normally included in the group.

We can turn as well to one of those early Church scholars heavily influenced by that short mankind history of Roman-Grecian thought Eusebius see page 173, Table 79
Finegan, Jack.  (1999) Revised Edition Handbook of Biblical Chronology. (New revised edition).  Hendrickson.  From this table we see that Eusebius achieved the magical 480 years of 1st Kings 6:1; by eliminating the years of Oppression and counting only the years of the Judges. 

Todays’ “kernel” scholars of Biblical Archaeology have compressed all the years period.  With the “new” teaching that, different Judges ruled at the same time.  If this was truly a reality of the situation, at the beginning of United Kingdom of Israel under Saul, there should have been greater tribal refusal to accept a single King, as we see with the reign of David.  Alternatively, even better such a division during the strengthening of the status of High Priest under Eli, and Samuel, yet in scripture there is none documented.

While one or two Judges may have ruled different parts at the same time, it is my humble opinion that to claim that all did is disrespectful of scripture, I believe in.  While they violate those verses that tell us plainly that they did not.

Furthermore, my dear Sir Turanclancath this new “kernel” compaction of the era of Judges goes further into the myth, again a new myth.  That the concept; of the United Kingdom, is but a fictional creation by either Solomon’s court or later exiled Jewish captives.  I can find no support that mixed peoples create an artificial history to bind themselves together, let alone when they are in a foreign land! 

If you or anyone does know of a nation with a made-up history to bind them together, please share it with me.  I would appreciate it greatly.


Now my most dear Sir Turanclancath,  I did a quick search on a few great spans of rule.  To see if while they ruled in their native counties did others rule parts of it as is the now the current explanation of the Judges.

(See below)  The answer I had to come to is no.  My search was greater than the below indicates but these best describe the overwhelming status of the historical truth.  One rules even if over succeeding generations.

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
TheVictorian era of the United Kingdom was the period of Queen Victoria's rule from June 1837 to January 1901 [1]. This was a long period of prosperity for the British people, as profits gained from the overseas British Empire, as well as from industrial improvements at home, allowed a large, educated middle class to develop. Some scholars would extend the beginning of the period—as defined by a variety of sensibilities and political concerns that have come to be associated with the Victorians—back five years to the passage of the Reform Act 1832.
William Lamb, 2nd Viscount Melbourne, PC, FRS (15 March 1779 – 24 November 1848) was a British Whig statesman who served as Home Secretary (1830–1834) and Prime Minister (1834 and 1835–1841), and was a mentor of Queen Victoria.
Benjamin Disraeli, 1st Earl of Beaconsfield, KG, PC, FRS (born Benjamin D'Israeli; 21 December 1804 – 19 April 1881), was a British Conservative statesman and literary figure. He served in government for three decades, twice as Prime Minister. An Anglican, he was nonetheless the first and thus far only Prime Minister of Jewish heritage. Disraeli's greatest lasting achievement was the creation of the modern Conservative Party after the Corn Laws schism of 1846. Prime Minister of the United Kingdom from 20 February 1874 – 21 April 1880

Elizabethan Times

William Cecil - Lord Burghley, This Elizabethan times man was famous as the Chief Advisor to Queen Elizabeth I.
Robert Cecil-This Elizabethan times man was the son of William Cecil, Lord Burghley and famous for his brilliant mind and acting as the Senior Statesman to both Queen Elizabeth I & King James I.


Lastly while most believe their theory is correct.  I have archaeological science to use with my belief in scripture.

Again thank you my most dear sir Turanclancath for the mind stretching a good day to your and yours.  As to all