Dr. Aardsma

[Sekhmet]

Dr. Aardsma is without a doubt a well-educated physicist and when it comes to the science of Physics; I would be very dependent upon his statements and reasoning’s.  When it comes to Biblical Archaeology I have to hold him to the same standards, I hold myself and any other student of the field.  Unfortunately, when I see a confirmed physical scientist selling religious works to the raves of right wing fundamentalist religious believers my huh, oh meter sounds off big time.

In investigating his chronology, I found it more dependent upon theology than either archaeology or even scripture.  More or less theology demands that God comes first, followed by miracles, then those that believe on Him.  If history followed these demands of theology, then humanities history would not be as bloody as it is.
 
I found for me, two problems with Dr Aardsma placement of Abraham during the reign of Menes.  First, the time span between Abraham and Joseph based upon the time honored counting years is not compatible.  Further when looking for historical support for this period there is no easy support of historical agreement.  This lack is further aggravated when we add Moses’ Exodus account to Dr. Aardsma work.  Neither archaeology, nor history, receives agreement by placing Abraham with Menes of Egypt. 

Second, I find the Biblical account of Abraham and his unnamed Egyptian Pharaoh at grave odds with the historical account of Menes.  This uniting Pharaoh of the Two Lands, of the Nile generally is considered one of the first two Pharaohs of the 1st Dynasty.  Archaeology already provides the knowledge that both of these men were warrior/general Pharaohs dominating Palestine during their lifetimes.  Neither man sounds like the type of Pharaoh anyone could lie to, get away from with gifts, and a get out of Egypt proper back to Palestine pass.  Which is the story of the Bible, yes I understand God is well able to deliver.  If either Pharaoh was, Abrahams’ great miracles started earlier than we like to believe. 

Nor is there need for a divine miracle of this nature.  For the fifth ruler of the 1st Dynasty of Egypt was untraditionally for this dynasty, a weak Pharaoh.  He was a very small child and the regent was his mother Queen Merneith.  Here we have a Biblical, historical, and an archaeological fit of Biblical proportions!  When we return to counting of years, that very time honored Biblical Chronology tradition, we find the years Biblically given between Abraham, Moses, and Joseph all fit historically, as well.

http://forum.bib-arch.org/index.php/topic,464.0.html
http://forum.bib-arch.org/index.php/topic,438.0.html
http://forum.bib-arch.org/index.php/topic,485.0.html
http://forum.bib-arch.org/index.php/topic,478.0.html

It is my belief that theology has had almost two millenniums to solve the Biblical Chronology problem.  It has failed.  Simply using a new name to rehash more of the old does not work for many like myself.  Archaeology has disproved the theological chronology, and it will most likely be the only way finally to solve the problems.  Providing us with the proof that the Bible does in fact contain; a real history of the Jewish people and the origins of the Arab people.

[turanclancath]

Dear lady Sekhmet.
Exellent critic on Aardsma.

I would add a 3d ( there are many more flaws in his theory )fundamental critic point.

His missing 1000 years between circa 2000 and 1000 BC.
He places  Samson around circa  1950 BC  and  the united Monarchy circa 1000 BC.
 I would call this  method  force to fit !!
In this way he stays in the classical theological  framework by placing David/Solomon around 1000 BC  .

And here a link to Aardsma ,s chronology

http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/answers/millennium.php

Turanclancath

[Sekhmet]

Dear lady Sekhmet.
Exellent critic on Aardsma.

I would add a 3d ( there are many more flaws in his theory )fundamental critic point.

His missing 1000 years between circa 2000 and 1000 BC.
He places  Samson around circa  1950 BC  and  the united Monarchy circa 1000 BC.
 I would call this  method  force to fit !!
In this way he stays in the classical theological  framework by placing David/Solomon around 1000 BC  .

And here a link to Aardsma ,s chronology

http://www.biblicalchronologist.org/answers/millennium.php

Turanclancath

Ah, thank you my dear sir Turanclancath, again dear sir you are kind to me. 

In the Archaeological Chronology, I have a thousand years between Moses and Solomon.  Violating the traditional understanding of 1st Kings 6:1, this is because, I prefer to read the book of Judges as more authoritative.  Judges especially in the early part of the book we find multiple references that claim generations, not the straight-line continuum supported only by 1st Kings 6:1.

I cannot find historical support for Samson as early as Dr. Aardsma’s 1950 BCE.  Samson according to scripture is a late period Judge, whose main enemies were Philistines.  At this time, the major players in the Levant are the destroying Semitic Amorites the bad guys.  Whose existence disallows their relatives the Hebrew’s from existing this early. 

Archaeology, history, (and I prefer to place Samson the late period Judge, into the role of being an ally of Egypts’ liberating) Pharaoh Ahmose 18th Dynasty who takes credit in destroying a Hyksos stronghold in Canaan.  The Hyksos did have a relationship with the Philistines.

Just as archaeology, history, (and myself place King Abimelech of the early Judge period in Shechem) during the 12th Dynasty reign of Senuseret III leaves us his report of attacking, defeating Shechem (c. 1875 BCE).

While I do have an annoying thousand years, I place the various Judges through it, allowing the statements of the book of Judges, to fill the resulting blanks.  Preferring to see that lone verse of 1st Kings: 6 as an ethnocentric claim by the now important King Solomon court.  That did not allow the count of any non-Hebrew ruler in Hebrew history.

I appreciate your pointing this problem of Dr. Aardsma out to me dear friend.  Normally, I cannot get past his Abraham/Menes position.  You are right sir in pointing out his back into traditional theological chronology by placing the United Monarchy in 1000 BCE.   

To you and yours Turanclancath a great day.

[Moses]

Interesting readings.
I agree that Dr Aardsma credentials are not in the field that he is writing about.

Archeologically there is possible evidence for the first exodus of the  Pharaoh Jacobam or Jacoba who is called Israel.

If Jacob and his sons lived in Canaan they would leave behind them Hebrew settlements. Id Jacob is 1000 years before David here we get the 1000.
And the first exodus that is somewhat mentioned in the biblical story of Jacobs / Israel return and the meeting with his brother Esau.

I agree that if Samson existed the placement is closer to the Davidic period.

Also the Anakim - giants can be easily placed in earlier times.

[Sekhmet]

If Jacob and his sons lived in Canaan they would leave behind them Hebrew settlements.

Hi Moses, Hebrew settlements?  Traditionally, farmers have settlements, herders such as Jacob tend to move about.  With Jacobs' family strong ties to Mesopotamia would their normadic remains be more Mesopotamian than Hebrew? 

Jacobs' grandparents were Mesopotamian in origin, Abraham and Sarah.
His parents Isaac and Rebekah were Mesopotamian by birth with Rebekah origins there.
Jacobs' wives their origin was also from Mesopotamia.  Only his youngest son was not born in Mesopotamia.  So, what would a Hebrew look like at this time if not a Mesopotamian?

Thank you sir, for your agreement on Samson, it is appreciated.  Regarding the Anakim I agree with your assessment, they can be easily placed earlier in time.

[Moses]

I think it is historical fact that Semitic people from Mesopotamia found their way to Egypt and settled there.

It is interesting that depictions in the temples show white people and black people. Some depictions actually show white people and black servants.

It is viewed in some circles that RA is the Egyptian name of Marduk who originated in Mesopotamia and with other Mesopotamian penteon of Gods divided the earth in regions so his was Egypt and couple others.

We all know the encounters of Abraham and Sarah with the Pharaoh and the same story is of Izik and his encounter with Pharaoh.

This can point that Pharaoh of upper Egypt meets with King of lower Egypt.
Records of Egyptian kings we find the following :

Yakobam, Yakoba - or in English Jacobam or Jacoba very close to Hebrew name Yacob - Jacob.

Joseph ruler of lower Egypt the land given to him and his brothers all children of Jacob who is Israel.

[Sekhmet]

Marduk was the Babylonian name of a late-generation god from ancient Mesopotamia and patron deity of the city of Babylon, who, when Babylon permanently became the political center of the Euphrates valley in the time of Hammurabi (18th century BCE), started to slowly rise to the position of the head of the Babylonian pantheon, a position he fully acquired by the second half of the second millennium BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk
Also see Peoples of the Past Babylonians H.W.F. Saggs.  (2000).  Califorina.  Pg. 102, 107.

I am most sorry Moses.

The holy city Iunu of the the Egyptian Ra, pre-exists the uniting of the Two Lands ca. 3000 BCE (Quirke, 2001: 81).   While Ra does not appear in royal names until later.  By the late 2nd Dynasty there is growing evidence that there was a growing awareness of a solar deity dating to Pharaoh Peribsen.  Two Pharaohs later, we find Imhotep with the title of wr-m3(w) that from the Old Kingdom on, refers to the High Priest of Ra, at his holy city Iunu (Wilkinson, 1995: 293).

The Cult of Ra Sun-Worship in Ancient Egypt  Stephen Quirke.  (2001) Thames and Hudson.  Pg. 81
Early Dynatic Egypt Toby A.H. Wilkinson.  (1995).  Routledge.  Pg. 293.

So, to infer that Ra, is an adoption of Marduk, a late period Babylonian god introduced by Mesopotamian travelers is really a non-starter (IMHO).  In considering the attributes of Marduk with water, vegetation, judgment, and magic.  As we understand them today (from the Wikipedia site cited) I would have to suggest.  That Hammurabi was instead influenced by the popular adoration and elevation of the Egyptian god Osiris.  Whose attributes are very similar to the later Marduk attributes.  Osiris’ importance to the ancient Egyptians began rising at the end of the Old Kingdom.  This change is considered part of the democratizing in death that began about 2110 BCE after the Old Kingdoms’ fall.


Should you want to place Hammurabi in the Bible, might I suggest as King of Mesopotamia, Cushan-rishathaim.  http://forum.bib-arch.org/index.php/topic,454.0.html  The best fit I have been able to find as of today.

The Bible in no way infers that Jacob was ever a Pharaoh of Egypt.  In fact the Bible records Pharaohs' welcoming speech to Jacob.

[Moses]

Ahh,

Even Moneto is not calling the Pharaohs of the lower egypt as Pharaohs, they are called king of Egypt instead.

"In the year 363 His Majesty Ra, the holy one, the Falcon of the Horizon, the Immortal who forever lives, was in the  land of Khenn. He was accompanied by his warriors, for the enemies had conspired against their lord. . . Horus, the Winged Measurer, came to the boat of Ra. He said to his forefather: "O Falcon of the Horizon, I have seen the enemy conspire against thy Lordship, to trade the Luminous Crown unto themselves. . . Then Ra, the holy one, the Falcon of the Horizon, said unto Horus, the Winged Measurer: ’Lofty issue of Ra, my begotten: Go quickly, knock down the enemy whom you have seen.’ "

"Thus began the tale inscribed on the temple walls in the ancient Egyptian city of Edfu. It is the tale we believe, of what could only be called the First Pyramid War - a war that had its roots in the never-ending struggle for control over Earth, especially Enki/Ptah and his son Ra/Marduk.

Giza pyramids were supposed to remain neutral under the aegis of Ninharsag, it is doubtful whether the builders of these facilities - Enki and his descendants - had really any intentions of relinquishing control over these installations. A Sumerian text, which begins with an idyllic description, has been named by scholars a "Paradise Myth." Its ancient name was Enki and Ninharsag, and it is, in fact, a tale of a deal between Enki and his half-sister Ninharsag pertaining to the control of Egypt and the Sinai peninsula - of the pyramids.

"Egyptian theological texts from Memphis likewise held that "there came into being" eight gods from the heart, tongue, teeth, lips and other parts of the body of Ptah.

Enki proposed that the two of them as masters of Egypt and the Sinai assign tasks, spouses, and territories to the eight young gods:

        Let Abu be the master of the plants;
        Let Nintulla be the lord of Magan;
        Let Ninsutu marry Ninazu;
        Let Ninkashi be she who sates the thirsts;
        Let Nazi marry Nindara;
        Let Azimua marry Ningishzida;
        Let Nintu be the queen of the months;
        Let Enshag be the lord of Tilmun!



"....If, as it appears, these tales had a basis in fact, then the rivalries that such confused parentages brought about could only be aggravated by the sexual shenanigans attributed to Ra as well. The most significant among these was the assertion that Osiris was truly the son of Ra and not of Geb, conceived when Ra had come by stealth unto his own granddaughter. This as we have earlier related, lay at the core of the Osiris-Seth conflict.


""In the year 363" following the disappearance of Osiris, the young Horus became the avenger of his father and launched a war against Seth - the First Pyramid War. It was, as we have seen, also the first war in which the gods involved men in their struggles.

"Supported by other Enki-gods reigning in Africa, the avenger Horus began the hostilities in Upper Egypt. Aided by the Winged Disk that Thoth had fashioned for him, Horus persistently advanced northward, toward the pyramids.

 After fierce battles Horus became victorious, with Seth hiding in one battle, and being seriously wounded in another.

    "So the Council of the Gods gave the whole of Egypt "as heritage... to Horus."

    "And what had become of Seth, one of the eight gods descended from Ptah?

    "He was banished from Egypt and took abode in Asiatic lands to the east, including a place that enabled him "to speak out from the sky." Was he the god called Enshag in the Sumerian tale of Enki and Ninharsag, the one to whom Tilmun (the Sinai peninsula) was alloted by the two lovemakers? If so, then he was the Egyptian (Hamitic) who had extended his domain over the land of Shem later known as Canaan.

"It was in this outcome of the  First Pyramid War that there lies an understanding of biblical tales. Therein lay the causes of the  Second Pyramid War.



    "With the ready-made pyramids thus taken, the Pharaohs who followed were forced to obtain pyramids the hard way: by trying to build them.... As those who had tried this before (Zoser, Sneferu, Radedef), their own efforts too ended with inferior emulations of the three olden pyramids.

    "At first blush, our suggestion that Khufu (as the other two) had nothing to do with building the pyramid associated with him may sound very farfetched. It is hardly so. In evidence, we call upon Khufu himself.

    "Whether Khufu had really built the Great Pyramid was a question that began to perplex serious Egyptologists more than a century and a quarter ago, when the only object mentioning Khufu and connecting him with the pyramid was discovered. Puzzlingly, it affirmed that he had not built it: it already existed when he reigned!

    "The damning evidence is a limestone stela which was discovered by Auguste Mariette in the 1850s in the ruins of the temple of Isis, near the Great Pyramid. Its inscription identifies it as a self-laudatory monument by Khufu, erected to commemorate the restoration by him of the temple of Isis and of images and emblems of the gods which Khufu found inside the crumbling temple. The opening verses unmistakably identify Khufu by his cartouche.

    "The common opening, invoking Horus and proclaiming long life for the king, then packs explosive statements:

        He founded.... the House.... of Isis.... Mistress of the pyramid.... beside the House of the Sphinx....

    "According to the inscription on this stela (which is in the Cairo Museum), the Great Pyramid was already standing when Khufu arrived on the scene. Its mistress was the goddess Isis - it belonged to this goddess and not to Khufu.

[Sekhmet]

My dear Moses, your Moneto can be one of several things 1) Manetho-a Greek speaking Egyptian of the 3rd century BCE that grouped Egyptian Pharaohs into dynasties.  2) Moneto-the Great Father of my Shawnee relations.  3) The organization that deals with the European private financial market.

I bet you meant Manetho, at the time of Manetho his Ptolomaic masters ruled as Kings not as Pharaoh.  So okay he referred to them as Kings.  That would have been correct.  You cannot take what is proper from one era and just apply it correctly into another.  Should I asked my grandchildren Moses, what “record” they want for their birthday?  They would not know that I meant vinyl discs of music.  The same goes for your wanting to use a term dating to the 3rd century BCE.  Then projecting it back some thousand years or more. 

During the Ptolomaic period the King of Lower Egypt, was the King of Upper Egypt there was no artificial political division.

Ptah was the creator god of Mennefer.  He was the traditional god of Pharaoh and postdates Ra in the national organization.  He never had the appeal that Ra did for the people.  To compare him to Enki fits only if we consider they were both creator gods, and both formless.  Which is about all any student of Aristotle, would want to know about Oriental religions.  We of the 21st century C.E. ought to be better.

Considering that the Ptolomaic Kings rejected Mennefer in favor of Alexandria.  Using Ptah shows the ancient Egyptians were not stupid.  ‘Pyramid wars’ likely was an Egyptian kowtow to the then Greek belief first voiced by Herodotus.  Of Cheops’ disgusting manner in building his Great Pyramid.  Egyptian history does not hold any such war in reality.  Manetho lived some 300 years after the terrible destruction of Assyrian sacking of Egypts’ great cities Mennefer, Iunu, and Waset.  I wonder just how much he really knew? 

If you really want to discuss Egyptian gods, without regard to their historical placement, evolution, attributes, the effects of time, war, and subjection let us start another tread. 

The fact is: be he; King of Lower Egypt, Pharaoh of the Two Lands, or the father of Pharaoh's right hand.  Jacob in scripture is never called by any great title.  Your wanting him to be other than scripture calls him does not make it so.  I am sorry dear sir.

We are beyond the days when Biblical agreements are so needed.  That they can be forced without regard.  So forced, that people without care can now claim, scripture is a fairy tale.  It is not needed, wanted, or right.  We have arrived at a day when any student, including grandmothers, can simply read published accounts of new findings, realize the truth of scripture and correctly plot it.


Please use referrenced citations it would be greatly appreciated.  Have a nice day Moses, to yours, as to all.

[Moses]

OK,

Why are you ignoring the Pharaoh Yakobaam?
Jacoba.

The name is very unique.

Historical Jacoba, a Hyksos Egyptian pharaoh - patriarch Jacob being the Hyksos pharaoh Jacoba?

The California Institute for Ancient Studies - List of Dynasties

16th dynasty 1650-1550 BC

    * Anather
    * Yakobaam

The 16 th Dynasty had Semitic names being Anather and Yakub-har or Yakobaam.

[Sekhmet]

Moses my dear sir, thank you.  I have not forgotten the Hyksos era.  Simply put, I have not been able to get to it as of yet.  I consider them as displaced Canaanites, Semitics from the Hebrew Conquest Period at the end of the Early Bronze Age.  If the Conquest Period actually happened, we should find refugees somewhere.  I hope to be writing more on this point of view in the coming weeks in its own thread.