Cyrus Gordon

[archaeologist]

i understand your point Brianroy about those who have studied languages longer and i agree with you   in part in what you say BUT we have to factor in those nasty mitigating factors like prejudice, belief/unbelief, points of view and even mistakes in reading.

i want to put your link concerning hebrew here and then add a couple linear A links as a comparison to make the point that i think the two languages are NOT related:

1. yours

http://www.mezuzah.net/scripts.html

2. mine

http://www.ancientscripts.com/lineara.html

&

http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~perlman/myth/linb.htm

in my opinion i think it is a bit of a stretch.  now i could be wrong but it is hard to see and similarity with these examples

[turanclancath]

Athena Review, 3,3: Minoan Crete: Bronze Age Writing on Crete: Hieroglyphs,
  Linear A, and Linear B

Not being a Philologist or Linguist Or Biblist or  Theologian as you are in my opinion( and great ones )
my tactic   as a  simple all round Historian to tackle the Linear A is the link above.
The Question and reasearch woulds be The first script around circa 2000 was Hyroglyphic.(  then linear A and then B )

Who were this hyroglyph  people and what was the language.?

II.
As there was no invasion by my knowledge 2000/1700 BC in Crete
the linear A people were the same as the hyroglyph people i may presume ?.

III. I leave out DNA research as  most older Historians distrust it, but the Cavalli/Sforza    adepts at Stenton (not a Minor University !!! )  could be helpful ?
Also only handmaidens of us historians in my not so humble opinion

( yes I always balance between Hybris and Humilitas )

Yes its true that between 1800/1700 bc according to Evans and others there were destructions of the palaces.( see Minoan chronology )
But in my litterature didnt discover hints for an invasion already in the 18 century Bc

So about the language I know nothing !.compared to you
But as an historian I would start in this way  and Linguistics is only the Ancilla of History lol.

I think its a very good problem i lay before you so please dont overlook it /pass it .

turanclancath

[Brianroy]

turanclancath,
    Thank you kindly.   

[archaeologist]

first off, i wrote my post in such a way for brianroy and others to submit their opinions and more evidence as i do not see gordon's conclusion here.

it is a possibility that linear A is semitic but i am not convinced yet and would like to see more from him.  i can't drop everything i am doiong and hunt down gordon's books and it would be helpful topresent his arguments so we could discuss this aspect intelligently.

second, i am not a linquist, just an informed christian who is researching the points being made, asking questions and making counter points for understanding and clarity.

i would like to see more presentation from gordon's side so i can think through his reasoning and understand how he came to his conclusions.

[DGraves]

Some information that will assist those sorthing through Cyrus Gordon and others ideas. I've placed the footnotes in quotes to help the flow.

Ancient Near Eastern influence on Greek writings (and vice versa) has been studied in such detail

Edwin M. Yamauchi, states, “Though we cannot uncritically accept all the stories which ascribed a Near Eastern inspiration for the various Greek philosophers of Ionia, a careful study of both the historical situation and of the respective texts of the west and of the east, convinces M. L. West that the traditions of such borrowing are sound in the case of the following 6th-cent. BC philosophers: Pherecydes, Anaximander, Anaximenes, and Heraclitus” (M. L. West “Daniel and Contacts between the Aegean and the Near East Before Alexander,” EQ 53.1 [1981]: 47).  Greece and Babylon: Early Contacts between the Aegean and the Near East (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1967), 85; Persia and the Bible (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1996), 379–94; “Greece and Babylon Revisited,” in To Understand the Scriptures: Essays in Honor of William H. Shea (David Merling; Berrien Springs, MI: Institute of Archeology/Horn Archaeological Museum, 1997), 129–55; Peyton Randolph Helm, “ ‘Greeks’ in the Neo-Assyrian Levant and ‘Assyria’ in Early Greek Writers,” (Ph.D. diss., University of Pennsylvania, 1980); M. L. West, The East Face of Helicon: West Asiatic Elements in Greek Poetry and Myth (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1997); Early Greek Philosophy and the Orient (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1971); Robert Mondi, “Greek Mythic Thought in the Light of the Near East,” in Approaches to Greek Myth (ed. L. Edmunds; Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1990), 142–98.

that scholars have given these relationships their own titles: Hellenosemitica and  Hellenorientalia  leading to what Burkert calls an “orientalizing revolution.”

Walter Burkert, The Orientalizing Revolution–The Near Eastern Influence in the Early Archaic Age (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1995). C. Lambrou-Philippson, Hellenorientalia: The Near Eastern Presence in the Bronze Age Aegean, C. 3000–1100 B.C. (Göteborg: Aström, 1990).

While some scholars have drawn unsubstantiated conclusions and ignored the archaeological evidence to focus on mythological-etymological arguments there is still a number of scholars who have put forth reasonable arguments for the Hittite influence on Greek culture following archaeology. However, the mythological-etymological heritage provides an avenue for the influence to be more enduring than just material remains.

James D. Muhly, review of Michael C. Astour, Hellenosemitica, an Ethnic and Cultural Study in West Semitic Impact on Mycenaean Greece, JAOS 85.4 (1965): 585–8; Edward Ullendorff, “Ugaritic Studies within their Semitic and Eastern Mediterranean Setting,” BJRL 46 (1963): 236–49. Michael C. Astour, Hellenosemitica: An Ethnic and Cultural Study in West Semitic Impact on Mycenaean Greece (2d ed.; Leiden: Brill, 1967). Michael Astour was a student of Cyrus H. Gordon and classmate of Edwin M. Yamauchi. He had an influence on Martin Bernal, a professor of political science at Cornell and the grandson of the Egyptologist Alan Gardiner. Bernal was also influenced by another of their classmates, David Owen. However, Bernal in his series, Black Athena, goes far beyond the evidence. Edwin M. Yamauchi, “Martin Bernal’s Black Athena Reviewed,” JAC 14 [1999]: 145–52.

Some of Cyrus H. Gordon’s parallels have been criticized but as Yamauchi [who is one of his students] points out, “Though he may be proven to be mistaken in some details, surely Professor Gordon is correct in emphasizing the common background of Greek and Near Eastern cultures. With publication of more data, scholars like Walcot are beginning to realize the great debt that Greek religion owed to Semitic sources.”

Edwin M. Yamauchi, “Daniel and Contacts between the Aegean and the Near East Before Alexander,” Evangelical Quarterly 53.1 (January-March 1981): 45–46; Peter Walcot, Hesiod and the Near East (Cardiff: University of Wales, 1966); Éléments orientaux dans la religion grecque ancienne (Paris: Presses Universitaires de France, 1960); Les syncretismes dans les religions de l’antiquité (Leiden: Brill, 1975).

Geller summarizes the various influences of Mesopotamian culture on Hellenistic life by mentioning the contributions to the Aramaic language, legal contracts, medicine, and law. He illustrates this by “considering the continuing cultural impact of Babylonia in Hellenistic Jewish life.”

(Mark J. Geller, “The Influence of Ancient Mesopotamia on Hellenistic Judaism,” in Civilizations of the Ancient Near East (4 in 2 vols. ed. Jack M. Sasson; Peabody: Hendrickson, 2000), 1:43.)

Perhaps the most obvious irrefutable example for the influence of Ancient Near East on Greek and Roman thought is that ideas and terms from ancient Mesopotamia, were passed on through the Greeks to the Romans, are the names of the five planets, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn plus the sun and moon. In ancient astrology, these heavenly bodies represented the seven astral deities, which eventually gave their names in the Germanic, and Anglo Saxon tongues to our days of the week.

Eviatar Zerubavel, The Seven Day Circle: The History and Meaning of the Week (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1989), 7; Cecil H. Brown, “Naming the Days of the Week: A Cross-language Study of Lexical Acculturation,” Current Anthropology 30.4 (1989): 536–50; W. M. O'Neil, Time and the Calendars (Manchester, Mich.: Manchester University Press, 1976).

DG

[turanclancath]

 Bravo Bravo David or Donald  or ? Graves.

I agree with your analyses of Cyrus.H.Gordon.
It is so easy to dump older scientists in the garbage as helas often happens .

We ( the next generation ) are always I think the dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants
( Thiery of Chartres 12 century )


And a compliment you are the first here   who mentioned the Black Athena
discussion !!! in your citation.
 I trew out a fish in the Boaz/ Jachin discussion in artefacts saying that eventually the Bl   At  discussion will pop out of our heads.

Nobody understood the pun !

Well the Black Athena is very  important  for Cyrus  ideys  as Cyrus was  a intuitive forerunner of it ( avant garde )..
i shall post tomorrow the Black Athena links .

turanclancath :

[Brianroy]

I agree,
  thanks DGraves for the assist! 

I traced the Greek influence through the Mesopotamian Hyksos via Egypt as well as Canaan in literary texts...but in principle, it is still the same result, so we agree.  Thanks again!

[turanclancath]

Black Athena: Towards a constructive reassessment I

here is the Black ( or Bleak  or Bleached   ) Athen a link by a fellow Dutchman !

turanclancath

[DGraves]

I forgot to mention that

The Roman comparison with the Greek days of the week is verified by a bilingual graffiti at Pompeii (before AD 79). (Zerubavel, Seven Day Circle, 19; Falk, “Astronomical Names,” 125). Also, the Jews were believed to be worshippers of Saturn, as the Jewish Sabbath coincides with the Roman Dies Saturnis (Cassius Rom. Hist. 37.18). The parallels between the cultural names for Saturday further illustrate this comparison. A simple Google here will do.

DG