Cyrus Gordon

[Brianroy]

Biblical Archaeologist


Biblical Archaeologist


Biblical Archaeologist

Biblical Archaeologist

[Brianroy]

Biblical Archaeologist

Biblical Archaeologist

[archaeologist]

can't copy from the link so i will have to type it in--

Gordon  continued his work on minoan and soon identified 2 more words...because these two wrods were known from akkadian, gordon arrived at the specific conclusion that theminoans were east semitic

i do not know if we can draw such a conclusion or assumption.  this would be ignoring the fact that all languages have imported words and the ancient world would be no exception.  just because 2 or a few words were akkadian does it mean the minoans were semitic, they were world travekliers and it would be quite common for them to adopt words from other languages.  english does it all the time so do many other modern people.

plus i think it woulod have been wiser to discover the origin of the people before using the language as evidence for their roots.   because linear A is still undeciphered i think it is a big mistake to assume a semtic origin.

we need more information on the society as a whole first before leapingto any conclusions.

{i am glad there are bibliographies at the end of the articles soi do not have to ask anyone for a list of books}

[archaeologist]

thanks brian roy for bringing thisman to our attention but i was wondering if you had any articles actually written by gordon so we could read his words first hand and draw our own conclusions/

thanks

[Brianroy]

I noticed the title of this link below, as it appears, is inaccurate and blasphemous, and virilently disagree with...but it is a code "heading" imbedded in the url that I cannot alter.  I ask everyone's forgiveness about that.


Akhnaten as the founder of Jewish Monotheism

has selected quotes through one of his books, which will be over 40 pages if you should print it out or copy to your own files. 

Cyrus H. Gordon, Before the Bible: the Common Background of Greek and Hebrew Civilisations, Collins, London 1962.

I don't see any online free access to anything else in his own words.  Even at the BAS home, his interview with BAR from which I reference in regard to Linear A, etc., on another thread and have the hard copy of...

Biblical Archaeology Review, Vol. 26, No.6,, Nov/Dec 2000 - pp. 60-61; “Against the Tide: Interview with Maverick Scholar Cyrus Gordon.”

will cost $7.50 for that one article.  But if you have the $50 membership, that article as well as that of Bat Creek, etc., will be available to you. Or, if you save your old BAR issues, (sometimes people at Church collect them too), you can thumb through and see if you (or they) have that issue.

That's about the best I can do at the present time.  Gotta go.

Peace.

[turanclancath]

I have 2 books  by Cyrus Herzl Gordon  ( in Dutch translation )

I.Before the Bible .

II, Introduction to Old Testament Times.

In his Introduction to OT times in Chapter V  :The Amarna Time he states in the first pages


Their is no connection watever between Moses and his Hebrew Monotheism and Achnaton.
( classic Orthodox Jewish  point of vieuw   as he was a strict Orthodox Scholar )

Sorry to give you a free translation in Dutch because I dont have the English edition.

But did I understood well  ? he has nothing to do with the Acknaton link  he is only mentioned in the article correct ?

In his own words Akhnaton and Moses have nothing together.

Yes and Cyrus Gordon made 2 bloopers 
1.About the los lunas stone.
2.About the Linear A.

But who is without Faults/Perfect  of us humans ?

So and it is night for you overthere in the States,  Sleepwell

Turanclancath

[Brianroy]

The quote:

"Jews are riven  [riven is split asunder, or simply greatly divided over]

the oscillation [the swinging to and fro]..." 

in regard to Akh... and other idolatry in that ancient time period is already informed us in the Biblical texts in regard to Baal, Asherah, and Molech.

  Of these, the Talmud splinter faction of Pharisaic Judaism calls Molech idolatry as not idolatry, as long as the stock is made of wood, (in fulfilling one of the the curses against them in  Deuteronomy 28) that the sexual practices of the Mosaic Torah might be over-ruled when it is convenient...even if it is not observed, they still refuse to excise that schism ( and hence, free themselves from one of HASHEM's curses, to their benefit) as contrary and in direct opposition to the written Mosaic Torah.

When I read Cyrus Gordon, I already comprehend some better and more secure (though differing) points of insight into the relevant historical outline of the period between the 15th and 10th centuries, than he knew in 1962 when these quotes were published, only because of great intellectuals like he, and Albright, and others who have hashed out all these thoughts beforehand. You can see some of what I mean when you readmy thread on redating the Exodus through Greek reckonings of history...or whatever title I gave it here. 

Historians, and archaeologists, first go through a hashing out stage.  The processing of the data...the putting forth a thesis...the receiving of feedback...the adjustment of the thesis as new data or better insight presents itself...and then the solidifying of the thesis if it is well received enough as an accurate interpretation of the data.  Gordon is on the forefront of the chain, hashing this out. 

Looking back, we see the history of the 1551 B.C. -1511 B.C. Exodus as more than a singular people...it is a diversifying of that Semitic culture
into that regions trade and cultural assimilation.  And with it, the Hebrew influences upon others as seen in literature and religious beliefs, even as some or many of the Hebrews wandered and  practiced idolatry with them..tweaking Philistine worship, or at other geographic locations as a form of ecumenism and acceptance.

 It was the same as that which rabbinics later accused the Christians of ...in regard to holidays like Christmas and Easter...the incorporating of Roman and Babylonian idols as the basis for holiday...when in fact, Christmas is a high Hannukah day of the festival of Lights and Easter is the Leviticus 23 holiday of Firstfruits borrowed...not quite stolen, simply borrowed, and gentilized, from the Old Testament era Judaism for their replacements (as the Churches began viewing themselves contrary to Paul's NT teaching).

Gordon reminds us, that as we look at history, we see interaction between nations and cultures, not isolation.  From there...we have to do our own research and fine-tune that understanding of how little, how much, or who first and when...and so forth.  And as we now know, even cuneiform writing was copied well after the first destruction of Jerusalem in 587/586 B.C.   So, de facto, we are relying more solely on Carbon-14 dating and assumptions to predate myths that are ALL alleged to be stolen by the Hebrews, rather than allowing a possibility or actuality (in many cases) of a vice versa, and a readjustment to timelines, etc.   That is the block-headedness that reason and more data, and often even the same data with fresh eyes,  needs to over come.

Peace.

[turanclancath]

 Dear and honorably and respected Brian.
My English fails me : your last mail is too sophisticated for a non native speaker although  I,m  good in English.

Did you mean Gordon supported Aknaton  inspiration for Moses that was the quintesence of my mail.,

I enjoyed his books very much because he is Orthodox .And repected for that in the Jewish Community.

About the 1551 Exodus promoted by you I have  evidence by pure Archeology that it
 is  very correct,!!!! Great indeed!( we talk later about high or low chronology   but thats only circa 26 years differece  ) I favor the high Chronology( but not absolutely )
So Science corrobates the Bible  .Behold and Rejoyce all.
But O wonder Humilitas and Fear   bars me from publishing it here.
I will mail it to you in Private so you can decide if its useless or  has some worth .

turanclancath 

[Brianroy]

Turancloth,

The monotheism of Akhnaton (Amenhotep IV, who is dated as living from the 1350s - the 1330s B.C.) is a post Exodus belief system.  Remember those Egyptian Chronolgy links we were doing a while ago?   

 It is my understanding, that while Cyrus Gordon believed certain biblical texts had a foundation in recorded works among the ancients for their support as to why Moses or someone else wrote a passage down in the way they did...that he still was supportive of the Biblical texts as primarily unique and highly acceptable in their transmission down to our day.  He and Albright were not too much different, (from what I can gather),  and Gordon was knowledgeable in about 20 languages, according to his testimony. 

  The region of Israel, as you know, was a melting pot of Semitic, Egyptian, Babylonian and Greek cultures for over a thousand years.  The Hebrews often gravitated back and forth from their own identity to these various civilizations and beliefs systems of influence. 

Maybe what he was saying, might be described to you in this way. It may be a poor way to approach it...

Think on the kind of relationship and history that you Dutch have with Britain, Belgium, and France. 

 If Britain was Egypt, and France was Babylon, etc., how much influence in your culture (right now, in our current day) can you see in your daily culture etc. exerted by the English (or American) and French languages and customs upon everyday life in Amsterdam, or where have you in the Netherlands (which you will now temporarily substitute for Israel for the sake of mental processing in this hypothetical)? 

How much is exclusively Dutch...and how much is foreign?
Perhaps the foreign influences are quite a bit because you are a port and coastal country of access and trade route.  In terms of literature, what your people  think and believe, your customs and traditions...if there was no modern technology whatsoever...how much or less would the difference be? 

Now transpose that possibility through Time to an ancient Israel under the circumstances I started with, removing technology etc., along the way. 


In Gordon's words, regarding the relation with the Greeks in the same general period as the 1300s B.C. Amenhotep IV.

"There is a relationship, for example, between the tribe of Dan and the Danaans ---Greeks.

 [cf. Danaans and Danites ---Were the Hebrews Greek?  BAR, 1976.]

The tribe of Dan{aan} came in with the Philistines. The Philistines pushed the Danites into the sterile hills and took over the fertile plains.  So the Danites had to find a better home for themselves.  They sent spies to find a nice quiet place up north, at Laish, and they seized it and renamed it Dan.  [Judges 18].

The Philistines worshipped gods other than Yahweh; for example, dagon.  But Dagon is every bit as Semitic as Yahweh.

...Noah's son Shem is the ancestor of the Semites.  Japheth is connected with the Greeks.  Now look at Genesis 9:27:  "May G-D enlarge Japheth, and let him dwell in the tents of Shem."  The Greeks will dwell in the tents of the Semites. 

In other words, the area was Semitic before it became Indo-European.  Or to put it another way, the area was a Linear A [Semitic] area before it became a Linear B [Mycenaean Greek - ca. 1550 - 1200 B.C.] area. 

When the Philistines came to Canaan, they were already speaking what we call Hebrew.  You remember Abimelech, king of Gerar?  Gerear is one of the old Philistinian cities [Genesis 26:1].  There is no more Semitic name that Abimelech -- a Philistine king with a Semitic name."

from pp. 60-61 of BAR Nov/Dec 2000.  "Against the tide: An interview with Maverick scholar Cyrus Gordon"

Gordon liked to draw parallels and inter-relationships...to set out the data, point in a general direction, but let you draw the conclusion that you would draw from the data beyond the fact that there were Semites or Semitic influences here, and this or that culture's influence -- there. 

It does not appear to me, from how I read him,  that Gordon says that the Jews received monotheism from Egypt.  It appears to me, that Gordon si saying... that in their love/hate relationships of trade and war  and so forth, that often large segmants of Israeli society took up other cultures (in their idolatry, literature, trade,  or what have you) like we pick up and drop fads and songs:  as to what is "cool" and "socially hot" or the most "hip", or "rocks", or whatever expression young people use today.  If I'm mistaken in this...I don't mind direct quotations of him for correction.

Anyrate..I hope this helps. 

 Thanks for the note.  Although praise for assistance is appreciated...please don't over-rate me with 4 smileys. Two, on a five star point system, was more than enough.  (ha, ha.)  Thanks for your kind words.   

Peace. 

[rumplesnitz]

I'm sorry BrianRoy, but it's late here and my sleepy pills are kicking in...

Is C. H. Gordon pro-God or Atheist?  Knowing which way he is coming from will help me comprehend some of this, I think...

[Brianroy]

Rumple,

Cyrus Gordon was reared as a Sephardi Jew in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania; whose congregational heritage at the synagogue, through Haym Solomon,  was a flag-waving patriotic group whose connection is American History is known for  supporting George Washington in the Reveloutionary War.

If we take a look at who Cyrus Gordon was and what he believed, I cannot say that he was less than a  benign agnostic...or at least tried to reason from such a writing style as that.  He refers in his aforementioned interview with Hershel Shanks that he didn't study Talmud until he was about to write his doctoral thesis, and refers such knowledge as "baggage".  However, this doesn't mean he didn't have some religious leanings...but as an intellectual, he found himself in the position of distancing himself from many of them.

He certainly didn't seem to mind cursing like an Atheist, at times.  But then, I have heard those who are torn between Catholicism and Protestantism and their military service or desire to fit in socially, use the same language, and have a dual religious profile within.

 I suspect that Gordon also had a dual religious profile within, as many did in times past, and as many still do today; often unable (even themselves) to quite discern those boundaries. As historians, we often forget that there are some people who simply do not fit under a title of religious belief given them...because human psyche and behavior is often so much more complex than a label that we might assign them...or someone would assign to us.

We can, as we read his writings,  respect him for his intellect, and abilities, and the insights of someone trying to honestly comprehend the past.  At the very worst, it may seem to be that he also seems (at times) to be  wrestling with his own Jewish origins and genealogical identity in the ancient past...but that might also simply be, as with agnosticism, more of a writing style of trying to be intellectual, fair and balanced, and credible. 

As with Albright, it is more often harder  to find his religiosity in the writing style, than it is not.

[turanclancath]

Society of Biblical Literature


Very interesting good  posting from you Brian ( names are to long  you can shorten mine too Turan if you like .

And Rumplesnitsz to Rumpel perhaps ,

This mail I understood well because its short and divided in alineas .
Archy ( sorrry for the shorthening ) asked somewere  i remember also for alineas etc .


the llink about Cyrus.

I as i understand he joyned as every upper bourguois jewish philadelphian the Sehardic synagoge.
But Lithuanians as his family , and all the others mentioned were Ashkenaziem ( eastern European Jews most were very poor and unfashionable around 1900 started sweat shops   and had little stettl like synagoges.


Sephardi were aristos etc)  so therefore he joyned the Mikwe Israel.



II.
From the article I get the impression he was a Jewish believer  but very liberal but in Judaism you have many directions I understood, from fundamentalists ( like in Christianity and in Islam ) to very liberal.
 

See the discussion in Bar between Shanks and Jacobovic.


In your great mail there is more to reflect on like you said that even in allbright his writings etc.

My wife called for dinner  so perhaps later more
Stay well .
greetings from real springlike holland.
Turan

[archaeologist]

The tribe of Dan{aan} came in with the Philistines

i would have a problem with his position right here.  does he expand on this or not>

When the Philistines came to Canaan, they were already speaking what we call Hebrew

i would disagree with this as well as the philistines were known to learn other languages and we have very little of their mother tongue but what we do have  never equaled ancient hebrew.

if linear A was semitic in roots then we would have deciphered by now.  last i heard it was still an unknown language with no possibility of being translated.

[Brianroy]

"if linear A was semitic in roots then we would have deciphered by now", muses Arch.   

This may be true.  I think it would depend on the level of expertise as to who studies and attempts to decipher. Gordon was a code-breaker during WWII and specialized in looking at stuff in the same way one would crack the code on the Rosetta Stone, I guess.

If you look at the epigraphy of Hebrew from the return from Babylon until the first century, you will see 4 Hebrew letters trading places in their formation.  This creates a controlled anarchy in the translation during some of the formative period.

 Look at the Kaf and the Rosh, the Alef and the Tav, the Tav and the He in the following Aramaic, for example.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume1/V01p450001.jpg

The further back in time we progress, the more uncertain the translation, unless we possess even more information than we do now.  The translation becomes often as a matter of greatest preponderation, which is why selected scholars of a field will debate over the accuracy of a translation.

     Some years ago, Frank Moore Cross deciphered a certain  pottery inscription, and this was used as my introduction to archaic Hebrew.  Apparently, my use of what the correct letter formations and observance of spacing should have been, ended up with a result quite different than his translation.  I was able to successfully support why I could stay with my translation...but, at the time, I still did not quite see why FMC translated a few of his words the way that he did.  Which made me more curious as to why some letters are translated as one way, when they sometimes seem clearly, that they ought to be read as from the same, and not a previous period.  That is, if the letters and object of the alleged period in question, truly date to that period.
     But FMC has something I don't have, many decades of experience in reading the actual artifacts of archaic / older forms of Hebrew.  Experience provides a great learning process that you cannot learn in textbooks, etc.   And that experience can often bridge the gap in your mind of what you know, while often being disbelieved by others, who are determined not to believe...often out of jealousy or envy, more than with good cause or good reason.
   And in regard to FMC...Gordon was even further along in reading archaic Semitic; and, in my opinion, would have been able to more than able hold his own against FMC and a handful of his best contemporaries put together.  But, it could rightly be argued, with no real protest, that such is my own personal bias.

Linear A is a Picturegram, with languages used to describe the pictures.  Gordon basically had something better than a Rosetta stone to work with to decipher.  But sometimes, for us, when we have too much information, and place all of it as equal in value...the bad information can cancel out the good or correct data.  Therefore, we must weigh out and sift what is the most potent and accurate.   

Whether it was a learning tool for traders and merchants of the sea, or a dictionary for an interpreter, a wandering tutor, or diplomat of the era...Linear A appears to be exactly what Gordon says it was.  But as we know, "appearance" is sometimes over-ruled (or at least influenced) by the subjective.

Peace.



Other templates that may be of interest:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/volume1/V01p449001.jpg


http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/img_template.jsp?volume1/V01p451001.jpg&volume=volume1&imgid=167

Hebrew Scripts


And a handy article about the Hebrew letters:

JewishEncyclopedia.com - Error &nbsp;&nbsp;<a class="viewpg" href="#" onClick="history.go(-1)";return false>go back</a>

[archaeologist]

i recall LInear A to be lines not pictures, i will have to go back and take another look at the language and get back to you