Joseph/Imhotep belongs in 3rd Dynasty

[Sekhmet]

Joseph/Imhotep is of the 3rd Dynasty

The Joseph son of Jacob, Imhotep identification as discussed in several other posts as far as the Archaeological Chronology is concerned is correct.  Keeping him in his early third dynasty is the best place as well, for him for the following reasons.
1) The position of Vizier is already an established position in the Egyptian court as early as end of the 1st dynasty.  (Early Dynastic Egypt- Wilkinson.  Pages 137-138).
2) The use of the goddess Neith in the names of woman especially those of high rank, in this period.  (The Cultural Atlas of Ancient Egypt- Baines and Malek.  Page 152).
3) Pharaoh Khasekhemwy is the first and develops the title Wr-m3(w) literally the “Greatest of Seer”  a title Imhotep holds.  (Early Dynastic Egypt- Wilkinson.  Page 273).
4) The much later Ptolemy V Epiptanes credits Imhotep and his Pharaoh Djoser with ending a seven-year famine.  (History of Ancient Egypt- Grimal.  Pages 64-65).
5) By the end of this (Djoser's) reign, large foodstuffs stored in tombs ceases and replaced with substitution offering steles with magic being used to provide real foodstuff in the tombs.  (Early Dynastic Egypt- Wilkinson.  Page 111).
6) Joseph having been born in Mesopotamia would have been accustomed to monumental buildings in both Mesopotamia, and Northeastern Syria.  (Cambridge World Archaeology The Archaeology of Early Egypt: Social Transformation North-east Africa, 10,000 to 2650 BCE.  - Wengrow.  Page 134).
7) The White Temple of Uruk is actually a monumental Early Ziqqurat and is an old central temple complex at the time Joseph was a child.  (People of the Past Babylonians-Saggs.  Pages 26, 46).
8 ) Pharaoh Djoser is according to sealings found in Pharaoh Khasekhemwy’s tomb, his son, and heir.  (Silent Images- Women in Pharaonic Egypt- Hawass.  Page 19).
9) The Levant and Northern Mesopotamia dominating language is Semitic.  (People of the Past Babylonians- Saggs.  Page 67).
10) For the first time in Pre-Dynastic, and Early Dynastic Egypt history the storage granaries are centralized under Pharaoh.  (Early Dynastic Egypt- Wilkinson.  Page 128).
11) From the 3rd Dynasty, hereditary and powerful lords and all beneath in the social order lose status.  (Early Dynastic Egypt- Wilkinson.  Pages 135-137).
12) By the end of the 3rd Dynasty population foreign increases.  (Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times.  - Redford.  Page 51).
13) In Northern Mesopotamia, the city of Kish establishes true Kingship under King Mesilim.  (Ancient Near Eastern History and Culture- Stiebing Jr.  Page 41).
14) In Southern Mesopotamia (Sumer) true Kingship established in Adab as King Lugalannemunda defeats thirteen rulers many have Semitic names.  (The Sumerians- Kramer.  Pages 50-51).
15) No longer, can rich, wealthy, and important families flee Northern or Southern Mesopotamia as Jacob did in Genesis 31.

We who believe that scripture contains the truth and compare the titles of Joseph and Imhotep is nice.  However, it is only archaeology of the early periods of Mesopotamia and Egypt.  That can provide the material data that supports our belief that the comparison of the titles is correct all along.

When we free ourselves from the pagan based traditional Biblical Chronology we can consider the findings of more recent discoveries of archaeology.  Most of the above discoveries come from digs and publication of these digs of the last thirty years.  Hence instead of looking for Joseph, son of Jacob in Egypt.  We have, thanks to archaeology found him, and can provide the unbelieving physical proofs of that finding.  It gets even better as we work backwards to Abraham.  However, to create the Archaeological Chronology, I worked from Abraham forward due to the work of archaeologist that provided me with their wealth of information.

Unbelievers like to point out that Joseph was a slave, and cost only 20 shekels of silver (Genesis 37: 28 ) Dr. Hoffmeier claims this is the correct price for a slave in the Middle Kingdom or slightly later (Hoffmeier 1996: 83-84).  However, Joseph was no ordinary slave; Genesis 37 tells us that his father Jacob had other plans for this son.  He was the overseer of his older brothers and this would have included mathematics along with writing.  This is borne out when he at the tender age of 17-18 he becomes the household steward of the Captain of Pharaohs’ guard.  This was an extremely important household position for a slave and it was in an extremely important household on top of it all. 

An uneducated young man would have sold for 20 shekels of silver as Dr. Hoffmeier claims in the 2nd millennium but not an educated one such as Jacobs’ favored son.  Twenty shekels of silver would have been the proper price for an educated young man in the third millennium, as education always demanded a higher price. 

Running such a household would have required Joseph to know reading, math, how to organize, run a large, and important persons’ household.  It may have required him to learn basic medical care of the lessor slaves of the Captains household.  When thrown into prison, once again he has charge of assisting the Royal Jailor, with running the prison.  This is were he most likely learned the medical skills that in time lead him to become Chief Physician to Pharaoh and his house.  Which is a position Imhotep held during is extremely long lifetime.

[kattey]

How do we separate ourselves from the traditional based Biblical Chronology.  What IS your chronology and based on what?  I'm confused.  What is wrong with Biblical chronology?

I don't consider anything pagan as a negative.  The great civilizations of yore were pagan.  I don't see anything around today (excepting Israel) as vital and historic as the ancient Greeks, Babylonians, etc.  Today the pagan population is growing because people are despondent over the help they're not receiving from present religions.  Some Greeks are turning back to the Greek gods.

[Sekhmet]

How do we separate ourselves from the traditional based Biblical Chronology.  What IS your chronology and based on what?  I'm confused.  What is wrong with Biblical chronology?

I don't consider anything pagan as a negative.  The great civilizations of yore were pagan.  I don't see anything around today (excepting Israel) as vital and historic as the ancient Greeks, Babylonians, etc.  Today the pagan population is growing because people are despondent over the help they're not receiving from present religions.  Some Greeks are turning back to the Greek gods.

Hi again Kattey You ask how do we separate ourselves from the traditional based Biblical Chronology.  Simple examine the evidence of its formation.  The realization that this thesis resulted primarily on the use of ancient pagan Greek and Roman beliefs, that humanity had a short history on Earth.  Our Jewish and Christian fathers, working on their respected chronologies during the time of Roman predominate thought, based their chronologies on that pagan archaic short history of humanities existence.  It is easy to toss that chronology into the garbage where it belongs.

My chronology, no it is not my chronology it is the Chronology of Archaeology, the science.  It is not based upon what I want but what that science of archaeology provides.  I simply discovered the origins of our current chronology.  Then I simply re-evaluated the scientific archaeological findings particularly from the last 30 years.  Periods, those are totally ignored by Biblical archaeologists because “they are to far back” according to current Biblical archaeology based upon an incorrect thesis. 

If I considered the complete world of pagan, current, or historical as negative, I really doubt that, I would be using the handle Sekhmet the Egyptian goddess of healing and destruction, the daughter of Ra.  Can you produce evidence that I have said anything negative against pagans themselves?  My comments about them; are they not directed towards Christians?  That up hold their pagan based chronology, while claiming the Bible says it.  While they demonize science that says, the Christian chronology does not fit with the reality of archaeology. 

You have I hope read the above post?  When have you read of 14 cited scientific based reasons of placing a patriarch into the 3rd dynasty?  By using archaeology, I can repeat this for Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Moses in their proper context backed with cited scientific facts.  Furthermore, I can also provide simple, logical, and reasonable answers as to the other periods of the Old Testament.  Unlike current Biblical chronologist stuck in the last four centuries before Christ when the origins of our traditional chronology developed.  (Adler: 1989:1- 73.)

Thank you for an intelligent question.    Have a nice day.

[kattey]

Hmmm.  Don't archaeologists acknowledge clues that go way way back already?  (two sites of Neanderthal cavemen have been found in northern Israel).  When some parts of the Bible say a man was 500 years old or Methuzala was such and such, I'm not going to believe it.  Do you have a touch of creationist in you?  I don't know what Elija is talking about.  Archaeology gives dates using scientific methods--that I can believe.  No matter what any ancient peoples or cultures said, I don't automatically believe it.  I can make up tall tales too.

[Sekhmet]

Hmmm.  Don't archaeologists acknowledge clues that go way way back already?  (two sites of Neanderthal cavemen have been found in northern Israel).  When some parts of the Bible say a man was 500 years old or Methuzala was such and such, I'm not going to believe it.  Do you have a touch of creationist in you?  I don't know what Elija is talking about.  Archaeology gives dates using scientific methods--that I can believe.  No matter what any ancient peoples or cultures said, I don't automatically believe it.  I can make up tall tales too.

Aww, the question is though can you get your tall tales written down into history for thousands of years? 

Yes, of course archaeologists do acknowledge events that go back even into the era of Neanderthals.  Where, at least two sites in the Levant are in close proximity in time and space to Homo sapiens.  (No source at this time but memory.)  Try getting Dr. Byran Woods or even our dear BrianRoy to explain or how they accept it. 

For me, you do not have to believe anything Kattey.  That goes against your ability to believe.  I hope simply your beliefs are based on reason, logic, and not myth. 

Methuselah was 969 years old and his father Enoch never died, according to Genesis 5.  The length of a human age of this period is excessive by our understanding yet it is not limited to the Hebrew history, Sumerian and Egyptian in their Predynastic periods had excessively long lived persons.  Some of the reasons put forward are we live in a stationary civilization.  Archaeologists acknowledge that hunters and gathers lived longer.  Still 900, or 500 years still seems excessive.  Another theory I have read is it is 969 years of rule of the House of Methuselah; the house of Enosh was 905 years.  This makes some more sense still royal houses of today only date to about the same length of time.  I can assure you though that the Hebrew ages are nowhere as long as either the Sumerian, and Egyptian ages. 

My own theory is un-worked, because I work with later peoples.  The count has to be due to something with the Moon, because all three cultures had a lunar year/calendar before any other that is my two bits.

The only creationist in me is I do believe, that when God uttered the words “Let there be Light”, all the building blocks came into being.  In other words, try this experiment; place a cupped hand over your mouth and repeat those words with as much command you can.  What you feel on your hand is where I believe all the building blocks came from.  The junk, that came out of Gods’ mouth in those moments to put it bluntly.

Have a nice day:)  I am off for a while.  To all a great day and take care.
 
I do not care to talk about other people as a rule.  Nor do I know when astronomy came into the debate in chronology.  I just work with what I can understand.

[kattey]

Could the reason for hundreds of years old people be due to competition among cultures?  Everyone wanted the oldest human, and they were too naive to know descendents wouldn't believe it???

[Sekhmet]

Could the reason for hundreds of years old people be due to competition among cultures?  Everyone wanted the oldest human, and they were too naive to know descendents wouldn't believe it???

Hi kattey, you offer a suggestion I do not believe that has been considered before.  You may very well have found the key!

On the other hand, in my research I find the further back one goes into time before the onset of writng.  Respect for the ancestors was very strong.  Manetho wrote of the Egyptian pre-history generations, while Berossus' wrote of the Sumerian.  There is a pre-Berossus Sumerian King list that offers extremely long life times.  Of Egyptian, there is no pre-Manetho.  The Biblical pre-flood if one accepts the redactors of the exile period may have copied the Sumerian, and Manetho copied as well. 

With the mess current Biblical Chronology is in there is simply no way of knowing.  So, again your answer may be right.  However, i doubt if we will ever really know for sure.

Have a nice day.

[Elijah]

I fail to see where two men of the same title make the man as the same person. If Sargon and Nimrod have the same title it doesnt prove Sargon is Nimrod (it only opens possibility which could be very remote).
If Hamurabi and Nimrod have the same title it doesnt make Hamurabi as Nimrod. If AmarPal or AmarSin or Chedorlaomer have that same title it doesnt make them Nimrod. And so this applies to Imhotep and Joseph. The Pope has the name of being such a great Seer of the Christ, and yet for me the Great Seer is the WatchTower. In this case many people who are not Catholics will see the Pope as a vessel of Christ, and most will not see the WatchTower as such. So too Joseph was a nobody with no monuments because it says that during the 7 years of famine they came to hate him because they had to give all their money to Pharaoh to eat grain that Joseph stored. Then it goes on to show how much they hated him and gave no monument after his death because how else could the next Pharaoh not know who this Joseph was. Scripture says they enslaved Shemites and Israel because they did not know Joseph. This follows suit with Moses where the Egyptians are so busy worshipping their own kind that the next Pharaoh did not know Moses after 40 years of Moses being gone. So it doesnt make sense that any truly bibical person would seek proof of glorification of Joseph or Moses in Egypt when the bible is about the stone being rejected not accepted. The bible is about those who suffer for rejecting the way and path others made clear.

Matching the many 7 year famines means nothing. Famine was in Abram's day and it was also in Isaac's day. What all fail to see is that Moses learned that without crop rotation that the same crop fails in 7 years. There would be no law created if it wasnt something that happened over and over. The problem occurs first and then the correction or atonement. People assume problem solving comes after millenia where the same issue always existed. They assume that land was always sown with the same crop repetively which would imply scientifically that a 7th year famine always occurred and was ignored in all history. It is presumtuous to claim that it was. So too another more classic case, marriage was not defined as incestual until the masses of people proved genetic issues of offspring. But rather than beleive the metabolism of great longevity since Adam allows marriage-incest without defective children and that this issue came with Abram who lived only 175, people choose to beleive the incest has always been there (even without marriage) and all the thousands of defective children were born and the issue ignored. How could you not see unrelated partners had normal children and related ones had deformities. As the bible says people prefer the lie and so it starts with Adam claiming that Eve preferred a lie. And dont we all just thrive on the lies about history. I find it an excuse to justify current lifestyle. It is like pointing to two planets (Venus and Mars, or Jupiter and Mars) and saying you see if the gods cross over and intercourse then thats for us to do too. Our forefathers of greatest past and greatest history knew the planets are not living gods. Those who took control after their deaths are the ones who lied and twisted it all.

There is nothing clear about pulling 3rd dynasty forward to Joseph, or pushing Joseph back to 3rd dynasty. Methuselah dying at 969 was before the Flood (not 3rd dynasty after the Flood) and Nimrod being 500 at death as the last of anyone old died at Judah's birth 3 years before baby Joseph was born at Hamurabi's death. Of course, long chronologies have moved NImrod's death to 2009 BC (as well as 2309 BC). And Hamurabi has been pushed back from death at 1750 BC (when Joseph was 17) back to 2025 BC allowing him to be thought of as Nimrod in either century. The games are un-ending and to go from an agreed (right or wrong) chronology of our past 100 years back to hundreds of opinions is not at all flattering nor condusive to obtaining final truth. You leave any backbone or structure behind to accept dozens of conjectures. Of which your collection of Jospeh is Imhotep theory is nothing but many unconnected conjectures.

The bible is exactly about that. The concept of society failing from traditions does not mean all traditions are false, but rather that all people do is fancy new absurd concepts of the decade as the current fad to talk about or beleive. Where is truth. There is none because the motive is wrong. The person with truth is accused of just wanting to make a name for himself in the same manner that all the rest are doing only that, trying to make a name of prestige. Look what I found, doesnt make it true. Classic case New Mexico Roswell aliens. It is a shame and disgust if the only way to find truth is for all the dead to return to state the years and eras and centuries and decades they lived. Even then, you might have the guts to tell them they are wrong and that they lived the years you claim they did. Do you think such ones coming back to life will like you being that way. Then again, others think everyone is in heaven. DONT THINK that there arent archeologists who in their field go to spiritists to try to contact the person of the tomb they uncovered. Would you expect a true answer if a spirit speaks to them. If those spirits are bound for 1000 years they will not be able to pretend they are the dead. But people are hypocrites, those who wont speak to a bogus spirit because they dont think it will speak, will get another person hyponotized and call it scientififc (saying its a past person within their previous life). Getting debunked for such research does not prevent such research from being published, it merely causes them to hide the source motivation for the theories. A person who claims they spoke to Imhotep isnt going to put that in the book, nor are they going to say yes i spoke to Joseph and he said he is Imhotep. People hide what they do that is contrary to the people they publish for whether it be the scientific community or their church they are aware of rejection and hide that side of their sources until caught. Meanwhile others have gotten swept up on the great new discovery and the garbage enters our culture of acceptance.
WARNINGS FROM ELIJAH

[Sekhmet]

My dear Elijah, 
It is past historians that used what was only available to them to recognize Joseph as Imhotep only by use of titles.  On the other hand I posted 14 archaeological proofs as to why this identification is reliable.

AS FOR YOUR WARNING!
Save IT sir.  We are of different beliefs and you are only a shadow of the real Elijah whose prophecies came true because his came from God, not a tortured past.
Peace upon you and yours.  Have a nice day sir.

[Elijah]

I wish to state an applicable fact about each individual of 6 billion. The scripture says they will have to know that you are Jehovah and that indeed a prophet walked amongst them.
This does not refer to telling the future as if having miraculaous sight or insight, but rather refers to anyone who is correct in truth about any topic. If you warn sex in certain ways will bring certain diseases. Or unclean water by what you do to it, or not do to it. It refers to science as in water made truly holy by chlorinating it clean not blessing it as if dying from drinking stagnant water if blessed sends you to heaven, while living clean with chlorinated water means nothing. (Do understand it works in both directions, you can over chlorinate and poison yourself to death or enough to have damage.) Any negligent death is a curse from God. This is why self-sacrifice death or injury can appear to be a curse, and Jesus said to the people around him why has God forsaken me, or has he. So of course we look at what other people say, and when we think it goes bad, we say as they did to Job, you bring this upon yourself because you do not know God (science facts), and yet you think you do know.
Woman i say to you the same that Jesus said. Greeks called Hypocrates a physician that should heal himself first, and so they formed the word hypocrite. And so perfect Jesus called others hypocrites, but he also said of himself that there is no doubt they would feel he is a physician who should heal himself (of sin) first before worrying about others. In the end it is Y Ha W Ha (the cause is the effect) or king James I am what I am who proves it. And although you feel God will prove to the world that I am wrong in all things, instead God will prove all those things that I am right about (and people will marvel enough to ignore the many things I know I am wrong about, or will discover I am wrong about). Thus everytime a lesson is learned even by death (Madam Curie taught us X-rays and the x-rays also taught us about its effects by killing her) we can be assured that its this process of God (Jehovah cause and effect; action and results; blessing for good, and curse for bad) that will come true, and  those who proved it are prophets or published word of what is really so.

We the current time are in the middle between the past and the future. To see in either direction is by interpretation. Carbon-14 says when you died, but it does not say that a man is 30 or 90 because a man 900 has the body of man 90, and a man 300 has the body of a man 30. King Gilgamesh was 240 and he looked at Noah 940 and he said behold we are both old and yet Gilgamesh was positive in his own ideas that his being old at 240 means he will die soon like everyone started doing. Yet he looked at Noah having looked old those whole 240 years (from 700-940) and said look, you'll never die. Peter said this to Jesus too, LORD YOU WILL NOT DIE TODAY. So we have yet to prove that death of 3rd dynasty humans (440 years) at the early age in youth of 200 is a human body that will look to us as 35 or 40. That is what the bible argues as good or bad, truth or lie, that we ignore the many TRUE natural illusions. Astronomy such as Earth-center is a true illusion. The concept put on text in books may have been false, but the illusion is real, it exists, like passing a car that goes backwards.

A paradise that exists is destroyed by those who are not in peace, and those not in peace are never capable of making a paradise. It's full circle. The issues debated bring death as it did Cain bitter at Abel.
I find it sad if the wrong that people choose to beleive has direct bearing on their death, how they die, or when they die. Yet I am guilty too.
ELIJAH IS A MAN WHO WARNED
like John the Baptizer

[Sekhmet]

My dear sir,  I have decided to let you rant away without complaint- only so far- so be forward warned.  Why you and others ask?  The more you rant the more count replies this post recieves. 

You and yours have a nice day.

[turanclancath]

Quote from Sekhmet  july 26.

:




""


Methuselah was 969 years old and his father Enoch never died, according to Genesis 5.  The length of a human age of this period is excessive by our understanding yet it is not limited to the Hebrew history, Sumerian and Egyptian in their Predynastic periods had excessively long lived persons. 




Some of the reasons put forward are we live in a stationary civilization.  Archaeologists acknowledge that hunters and gathers lived longer.  Still 900, or 500 years still seems excessive.  Another theory I have read is it is 969 years of rule of the House of Methuselah; the house of Enosh was 905 years.  This makes some more sense still royal houses of today only date to about the same length of time.  I can assure you though that the Hebrew ages are nowhere as long as either the Sumerian, and Egyptian ages. 

My own theory is un-worked, because I work with later peoples.  The count has to be due to something with the Moon, because all three cultures had a lunar year/calendar before any other that is my two bits
""


Lady Sekhmet how wonderful.!!!
I hold already years the same opinion that these long years of Methusalem etc should be seen as moon years.

We have already primitive moon calenders  on salmon bones etc from the
Upper Paleolithic let uss say from .

circa 20.000 Bc.

I think that ancient people counted 10 moons   in a year as they had 10 fingers.!!
that is the most efficient way of counting if you have not a sophisticated sun calender.
So when a child is born you counted 10 moons and it was  1 year then.
etc etc.
 So 10 moons is  about 300 days so you have to deduct circa 20 percent from the 365 days solar year.for a 10 finger moon  year

So when a person is 1000 years .
10 moons is a year/ 100 is  10 years/ 1000   is 100 years and then ded uct 20 percent
So Methusalem was circa 80 years in modern style.


turanclancath

[Sekhmet]

My own theory is un-worked, because I work with later peoples.  The count has to be due to something with the Moon, because all three cultures had a lunar year/calendar before any other that is my two bits

Lady Sekhmet how wonderful.!!!
I hold already years the same opinion that these long years of Methusalem etc should be seen as moon years.

We have already primitive moon calenders  on salmon bones etc from the
Upper Paleolithic let uss say from .

circa 20.000 Bc.

I think that ancient people counted 10 moons   in a year as they had 10 fingers.!!
that is the most efficient way of counting if you have not a sophisticated sun calender.
So when a child is born you counted 10 moons and it was  1 year then.
etc etc.
 So 10 moons is  about 300 days so you have to deduct circa 20 percent from the 365 days solar year.for a 10 finger moon  year

So when a person is 1000 years .
10 moons is a year/ 100 is  10 years/ 1000   is 100 years and then ded uct 20 percent
So Methusalem was circa 80 years in modern style.


turanclancath

My Dear Sire,
You have found the answer, in my most humble opinion!!!!!  To my knowledge You have found the answer!  Great work on a most ancient problem!